MJ死亡案10月31日第21天审判专贴（直播）检察官大战“异丙酚之父”。

MkGenie

今天晚上，检察官大战“异丙酚之父”。看这个异丙酚之父是怎么英名扫地。这个所谓的专家已经收取了莫里团队1.1万美金的酬劳，而他的同事，检方证人谢弗，是免费前来作证。因为收了钱，“异丙酚之父”现在开始说莫里不拨打911电话也是可以理解的……

直播地址：http://www.mjjunderground.com/th ... ray-live-streaming/

MkGenie

he currently retired practiced for 30 years. you would agree you an expert in diprivan? yes. u are expert in modeling? No im not. you rely on others including shaffer? for that? yes i do. you would agree. on june 25th murray deviated in care? in multply instances? white says yes. agree instances in the preceding 2 months prior were negligence? yes i would says white. whats your understanding from reading murrays interview what time of dip amounts were given in the previous two months? white says i spoke to murray twice. objection substained. re asks aware of bolus and drip being used by murray? yes says white aware he did it for 2 months? yes.

according to murray he gave 50mg blus prior to the drip.? white says it was a mix between 25 and 50 mixed with lidocaine. walgren says all my questions are based on murays own words. white says yes i understand that. walgren asks how would you go about doing that? judge tells white to stop brining up his convos he had with murray as white says i could say based on what murray told me.. white says i dont know the details of how murray gave the drip? could have been with two seperate Iv lines? yes its possible says white. agree in those prior 2 months that giving bolus and a drip would be exstreamly dangerous? yes says white wihtout proper monitoring. complications could cause death? yes. would u ever give diprivan without basic airway equipment? i would have ways to give exsisted ventiliation ambu bag? he would at least have a bag and mask . ever given siprivain in bedroom? no. ever heard of anyone doing it b4 this case? no.

always given in a hospital type setting.? white says in clinic/office. etc walgren says a hospital type setting. whites trying to get around the monitoring equipment issue. white says i always have a bag and mask. walgrens going through equipement. white says its desireable!! to have certain equipment. u prepar for the wosrt case senario? white says whats the worse case senario! another hostile witness.

pulse oxy. is essential admits white. B.P monitoring? yes says white. how frequantly should u do B.P tests? depends on how the dip is given says white. either via a bolus or IV but at least every 15 mins

when u give a bolus then IV do u lose a tacycardiogram yes capnography? yes not everyone uses cap... but its important

shaffer said maintaing records was a deveation do u agree? desireable is the word white uses again. but agree re keeping records for medical records/lawsuits.. then white says he doesnt think it contributed to mj death. walgren objects and whites comment is striken. he thinks its deveation from the standard of care not a grvious one as he doesnt understand the diff levels of deveation in this case. but not unconscienable as shaffer said . its between minor and serious says white. he keeps records when hes in a hospital setting. .walgren says u keep notes cause its helpful to go back and look at how the paitent did? yes says white

pre procedure assesment? what is is it. to see if they have other issues that may cause problems when giving diprivan. anything that may cause apnea for ex. main risk with dip is apnea? white says in genral diprivna is ok and u dont have apnea problems unless given to much or two quick. names painkillers as a contributer.. walgren says and benzos aswell? white says that effect is different. whites going on about painkillers effecting the sytem

how much u been paid so far ? $11,000. at the end he will get (white says if they have money they havnt got any) his statement is striken after an objection. defence object. the only money u are getting is $11k? is that everything? white says he cant say. airline trips etc. white doesnt want to answer or admit anymore than $ 11K. white hopes he gets more. and says i charge $3500 a day but i dont think ill charge that cause i dont think they have the money. hes been there 11 days.are u gonna bill the defence $3500 a day? answer no

ever had a paitent stop breathing after u gave dip? when i i give for induction (white ramblings on and doesnt answer question) walgren asks again. white says yes. i use a bag or mask or intubate the paitent. so u can manage a problem? answer yes.

explain the dr paitent relationship? showing compassion knowing about their records. doing your bestfor them. agree a dr has an obligation to do no harm? absoloutly is his reply. agree that giving dip for 2 months violated the oath to do no harm? white says there was no harm in those two months? walgren says did he violate the oath. white says he provided a service to mj!! as mj requested/demanded it. walgren jumps on that. murray was offered money to give mj diprivan? white says murray didnt get any money. walgren tells him to answer the question. white says murray was offered money to be mjs dr. whos the final decesion maker in giving medical treatement. white says its joint. walgren asks again. white says the dr always have the option to walk away. walgresn asks if u were asked to give dangerous care would you walk away? yes i would never administer i would walk away

whys it necess to continuasly monitor when giving dip. white says very easy to switch inbetween the levels of sedation. to go deeper and a lesser level of sedation. was it your testimony that if u inject with 25mg its ok to just walk out the room? white says giving 25mg will only last 15 mins. so if u watch them for 25 mins and leave the room i see no problem!! ( thats the defence case) walgren brings up paitents vary in theri repsonce.wlagren says so its ok to just leave the room after 15 mins? white no says 30 mins! and if theres no issue i can leave the bedside. walgren says thats in a hopsital setting right? white says yes thats the only place i give it. walgren asks again you give 25mg in a room with no equipment etc watch for 30 mins and just leave. whites going on about monitoring a hospital setting and a pulse oxy. david says a pulse oxy means nothing without an alarm. what value does it have with no alarm if u arent in the room?? white wont answer the question keeps going off on other things. what value does it serve in your absense? white agreess it has no value at all if you are not in the room.

25mg mg assumes no other benzos are given interms of giving 25 is safe. white says if given hours earlier they might not effect that much.(contridicts the defence statement) if u know a paitent had loraz and midaz and then u gave 25 diprivan would you still leave the room or would you be more cautious. after watching for 30 mins would you still leave with no monitoring equipment. white wont answer the question. he thinks 30 mins is adequate for a small push of diprivan. walgren says its appriotate and a normal standard of care to give dip ontop of midaz and loraz then leave the room with no monitoring equipment or staff?. white keeps going on. walgren needs to cut him off cause hes letting white go on trying to defend murray. so mj likes to push the diprivan would that change your mind about leaving and monitoring? would you leave the room? no.

you cant justify murray not calling 911? no i cant says white. extream deveation? whites not familiary with these terms and claims. did murray act like a cardiologist? white says i dont know what he did.walgren said u read his report. white claims mj was in cardiac arrest! and says murray acted like many drs would!!. did murray act like someone well skilled in cardiac support? white says i cant make that assement. but i would have done things diff. i would have called 911 straight away. whites claims it was an isolated area of the house!! so was difficult. walgren says it was a bedroom!! that was a WTF moment. white is doing his best to defend murray. saying no phonelines in the house the house was secure! murray had a cell phone in his hand he called amir. wasnt murray able to ring 911 and put it on speaker phone?? yes says white but need to know the address!! and access the property!! walgrens jumps on him. cause white keeps going on about this gate. white says murray called amir to get medical assitance? walgren says murray never asked amir. white says he didnt know that. isnt it quicket to dial 911 then amir and leave a voice message.? yes but then white says you can have ppl on speed dial aswell!!! white says he doesnt think not calling 911 earlier would ahve made any difference

MkGenie

pls ignore typo's

Walgren asking him if it's ok to walk out of the room after 15 to 20 mins of monitoring after giving 25 mg of diprivan
Walgren asks if it's ok to leave a patient alone without monitoring or additional personell.Walgren asks what value a pulse oximeter without an alarm has when one leaves the room, White trying to talk his way around it says it does mean something not ''nothing'' as Walgren states.
What a f**king asshole
Walgren asks again what value a pulse oximeter has if someone is out of the room, White tries to hassle his wway out of it but then agrees that there is no value at all, that it doesn't mean anything
asks White if the 25 mg propofol combined with other benzos is more dangerous than just 25mg of dip alone, asks White if he'd walk out of the room just like that with additional benzo's, White says no it depends when benzos were given, white asks again if he'd still be leaving the patient alone.
White says it depends on when it was given to have an combining effect. Walgren asks again if it's acceptable to administer midazolem and lorazepam without monitoring equipment and walk out, white asks what wlagren is referring to standard of care or standard practice. white says he's referring to standard of care
says if it would be ok to leave the patient, white says this is a special case cuz the physician was trying to provide sleep to the patient not a procedure
walgren asks if he'd let a patient who likes to push himself alone with all drugs while being out of the room. white says no I wouldn't leave the room
walgren asks if it's a great deviation from standard of care by hestiating delaying calling 911. White says he isn't familiar with standard of care.
Walgren asks him if in his opinion he acted like someone who is well skilled and well trained, white again states he can't make that assessment. as he wasn't there, walgren jumps on how he took murray's words for the gospel when it suited his agenda/assessment.
Whtie trying to hassle his way out of it, walgren asks again white says he would have done things differently, he says he would have done things differently but doesn't wanna admit that there is no excuse for murray not calling 911 immediately,
walgren asks him if he is aware of murray having a cell, white says now that u say yes.
Walgren asks when he'd call 911 after ressesetive meassures white says 2 to 5 mins
walgren asks if it's not the doctor moral obligation to tell the emts the truth about what's happened and what was given white states details can be overlooked!
!!
Walgren gets mad and asks him several times if failing mentioning propofol is a just a detail that's been overlooked? White again states things can be overlooked. Walgreen asks says so u wanna says all the time murrray rode in the ambu and at hospital it was just a detail he just failed to mentioned
white again states yes that's what he thinks, Walgren asks if it's possible that Murray lied on purpose witheld that info purposely, White agrees hesistantly.

MkGenie

whites embarassing himself trying to defend murray. hes making himself look stupid and a paid for defence hand

if u found mj in that state. you found a pulse assesed the situation. how long would it take you to decide you need to call 911. white asks you found a pulse? walgren says yes he found one and a heart rate white says if i was a cardiologist i would start cpr and call 911 within 3-5 mins!!!! this guy is unbelievable!!!

when the medics got there.doesnt murray have the obligation to tell the medics everything he gave me? white says sometimes you forget?. he thinks murray just forget. it was a minor detail!!! was it a detail murray over looked walgrens asks?? white says yes he overlooked it!!! walgren said after they rode in the ambulance did murray still forgot that detail? yes he forgot . or perhaps it was a lie says walgren? yes it could be says white

white says in his report he thought it was a cardiac arrest not a respitory?? white says no. walgren says so what other report did u do? he had phone conversations. whites trying to change his story. saying it was preliminary thoughts!!. not an actual report. he says it was a letter.

when a mixture of drugs are given it can cause breathing problems? yes agrees white. whites trying to say giving the xtra drugs depends on the time he gave interms of the effects on apnea. says it theoratical. wlagren says thats not what you said on friday re the loraz

whos responsible for brining the dip into mjs house. he says murray but says mj had his own supply!!!!. walgren asks where does murray say this in his interview. white says i had heard!! objection stricken. whites trying to say murray told him that in his interview. objections and the judge sends the jury out, hes not happy

MkGenie

White is in trouble. He keeps trying to interject the information Murray told him into his answers to Walgren.

Pastor has cleared the jury out after Walgren asked him to admonish the Witness. White KNOWS he's not to talk about anything other than what's been admitted into evidence. Murray's talks with him are not in evidence.

He now wants to claim Michael had his own stash of propofol besides what Murray purchased. That is nowhere in the record. In fact, according to Murray's police interview, the first time diprivan is mentioned to him his only concern was that he couldn't get his hands on it for Michael. Michael obviously didn't have it in his possession which is why Murray then purchased the lots from Applied.

I cannot believe this foolishness. NOW he wants to claim Michael had his own propofol. They have no bounds!

MkGenie

White keeps looking over at the defense table every time after he gives an answer....

MkGenie

walgrens should have been allowed to adrress that issue of mjs supply. defence jury tainting at its worst

bringing out the IV line. its been messed with? did u move the vented section or put diprivan in the tubing? its been modifiyed you agree says walgren? yes it has someones messed with the vented bit pulled it off . some part of it is missing

the actual eivdence IV has the venting cap on it. white says i dont know how the venting was taken off. says white. walgren asks it was taken off to mislead dr shaffer ?? objection.

agree the IV tubing is easy to put in a pocket?.easy to conseal? yes says white

initially u said mj could have drunk the diprivan. and that played a role? yes now u reject that theory? white goes on about diprivan being in the stomach and walgren says thats expected right? white never wants to answer the question. white rejects the drinking yes.

but from the outset you said a possibly cause was drinking. or self administared. walgresn trying to say. u wanted to blame mj from the outset.. white says i read earlier reports from ruffolo where he mentioned oral injestion. david says where did ruffolo say that? he doesnt know. walgren says flanagan asked a question about that.. white says oh ok.

white claims his rushed letter was just a preliminary finding. yet david says why didnt you write up another report then if this report was just a preliminary rushed letter. u had 7 months do another one. whites trying to make excuses. anything in this report that says its your preliminary thoughts?? white says i dont remember. walgren approaches with the letter to let white look

持續關注案情

MkGenie

Court started again
Walgren asks if the venting cap was removed on the defense's iv on purpose to mislead shafer? Judge says that's argumentative. SWhite says he didn't do it that he's never seen it.
Walgren asks if it's easily hideable/concealable White says probably. Walgren asks if it easily fits in his fist, White says some of it still shows, but yes.
Walgren asks him if it was his theory that MJ died while drinking propofol himself? White says yes, he was speculating
Walgren asks him if he rejects that theory now, he says he doesn't reject it but the evidence in this case says otherwise.
Wangren asks again on what he based that theory. He says he's basing it on Dr. Ruffalo's report, Walgren asks him if he has the report with him, wants white to refer tpo the specific line, Whtie says he doesn't think it was a report but it was said in prelim, Walgren asks if he is talking about Ruffoalo's testimony when Flanagan asks him
him, White says probably. White says his letter was done in a hurry that he was busy during the time, that he only had two days, that iwas only based on what was mentioned then (feb) and the prelim. Walgren asks him where in his letter/report he indicates that his thoughts were only based on the prelimg that the letter was his prelim thoughts
White says I don't know I gotta look at it, sometiemes I have to refresh my memory.
Walgren hands him over the document to read.


Walgren asks him if he found where he stated in his March 8 letter, that it was prelim letter, White says yes no I didn't find it but I didn't find the letter saying he had taken it orally, Walgren quotes his letter, him says that MJ caused his death by self administrating, either injecting and or orally.
Walgren asks him if he'd done more researches before putting this in writing, other than just the piglet study.
Whtie states he did a word search on oral bio availibility of propofol, and read the autopsy.
Walgren makes White admit that there was no bio avail;ibity of propofol still he wrote it dowm that MJ ingesting propofol to blame MJ, White says that were reasonable possibility cuz he wouldn't have died by just 25mg given by murray, Walgren makes white admit that he was only looking into a way to blame MJ.
Walgren asks if he's ever come up with any theories. that doesn't include blame the victim.
Walgren asks him if he took everything murray said as the gospel, white admits hesistantly, says he's never put forward any other theory but the theories of mj selff ingesting propofol.


Asks if he was concerned that Murray ever withhold information in his interview. Flanagan objects on something while mumbling couldn't make it out, judge sustains anyway on the ground of it being vague and ambigous
Walgren makes White admit that Murray lying was a possibiliy of not mentioning the meds.
They're talking about some Ornella (lastname?) Walgren asks him what who she is, and if she's a medical doc, white says she's doing her phd in bio engineering.
Walgren asks if he asked Ornella to create his models, White says he didn't ask her that specifically, says he just asked her to do some calculations on the amounts of free lorazepam found in the stomach, Walgren asks again if he asked her that, says you just met her last week how come she did it for u, White says she just did those models over night and emailed them to him, Walgren asks if he knows which day they were created White say's he'd have to check his mails.
Midmorning break for 15 mins now.

missred07

White真是扯暴了
居然什麼都可以扯來幫CM說話
什麼沒有電話線不能打911 阿CM可有兩個手機 什麼沒有地址 他是不知到911是可以追查到手機發射地址
什麼CM可能只是忘記跟急救人員講到Propofol
什麼只注射25ml Propofol看30分鐘就可以離開

Walgren問了個好問題: 你除了MJ自己喝藥喝死的理論外 有別的理論嗎?
科科科
他也承認寫MJ喝藥喝死論之前 去查期刊 明明就沒有任何資料佐證他的推論

這醫生一路作證下來 我左聽右聽 都實在太bias了
而且老不回答問題 扯東扯西

wuyeyu

极品的砖家

MkGenie

Dr White
Walgren

Dr White is retired after 30 years of clinical care, teaching and research

He's an expert in the use of propofol, not expert in pharmacokinetics and dynamics modelling, uses other people to do that, among others, asks Dr Shafer

He wrote over 100 papers about the use of propofol

There are instances Dr Murray deviated from standards of care on june 25th and the preceding 2 months : Dr White agrees

What's your understanding about CM interview, based on that interview, was he giving both boluses and infusions : for 6 weeks, yes. Walgren corrects : Cm says in his interview «* nearly every night*»

Based on CM's interview, Dr White understood 25mg to 50 mg + 5 CC of lidocaine , he sometimes did 2 injections. Based on interview, could not say how CM administered the drip.
It could be with several tubings as described by dr Shafer : there could be a number of possibilities, that's one of them

Agrees giving propofol without correct bedside monitoring , could be dangerous, could result in cardiorespiratory depression

Would you administer propofol without airway equipment ? The most important thing is an ambu bag, that's the minimum

Has never given propofol in a bedroom, has never heard of it.
Have you ever given it outside of hopsital setting ? : depends has given it in offices, clinics that don't have the same equipment as hospitals.0

is a suction apparatus necessary ? it's desirable , but vomiting is fairly rare.

You need to prepare for the worst case scnario ? some situations may not be covered in every venue.

Pulse oximetry is essential, blood pressure cuff is important, but not necessarily automated. For an infusion you measure BP every 5 mn, for boluses with minimal sedation, every 15 mn.

For Bolus + infusion :dr White uses electrogardiogram. Capnography is not utilised everywhere, finds it useful but not very precise.

Failing to maintain charts : is it an egregious and unconsionable deviation from stanadrd of care ? charts are necessary, but in this case it didn't contribute to death, objection , stricken,re asked
It's a deviation, doesn't know if it's extreme , it's between minor and mediate.

Do you maintains medical records ? : having old medical records is helpful.

What is pre procedural assement ? evaluates the patient overall condition, evaluates the airway, any factor that could accentuate the cardio repiratory depression..

Propofol complications : respiratory depression is rare , happens when narcotics are presents. The effect is much stronger when narcotics are present , benzodiezpine are less dangerous because they have additive effects

Dr white has been paid 11 000 $ so far, hopes to recive more. Normally charges 3 500 a day for court appearances, but hasn't asked that because the defense doesn't have the resources, is not going to bill that.

Have you had a patient stop breathing after propofol ? For genreal anesthesia yes, objection, yes or no : yes. I assist with bag and mask, or endotracheal intubation,or laryngeal mask.

Doctor patient relationship : it's understanding the patient's medical condition, compassion, treat them appropriately

1st oath of a doctor is «* do no harm*» Do you think CM violated that oath giving propofol for 2 months ? he did no harm. CM was offered money to be MJ's private physician.

Who's the final decision maker : both the patient and the physician share the responsibility. The physician has the possibility to walk away.

Dr White says he would never administer something he considers inappropriate , would walk away.

Sedation : it's easy to go from a level of sedation to the other . When you are adminitering an infusion or repeated bolus , you need to monitor ? Dr White agrees , but says that 25 mg propofol is a very minimal dose , it would have worn off after 15mn. You monitor the patient for 15mn minimum, ideally 30mn. After that, it's ok to leave the patient. That would be in a hospital setting , because that's the only place he's done that.

What's the use of a pulse oximeter without an alarm when you're out of the room ? : if you have observed them for 25 to 30 mn , propofol doesn't have effects anymore. Pulse oximeter has no value when you 're aout of the room.

What if benzodiazepines are on board : if they have been given hours before, they would have little effect. Especially if only 25 mg propofol is given over 3 to 5 mn.

Would the fact that benzos are present alter your level of care : 30mn is adequate for 25mg given from 3 to 5 mn,.
Even if a patient has no monitor and no staff ? This was an unusual case, the goal was sleep, it's acceptable.

If your patient had said he liked to push the propofol : Dr White would not left the room.

You can't justify failure to call 911 : No I can't. CM found MJ in full cardio pulmonary arrest, it's stressful. Would have done things differently, would have called for help. Initiated CPR immediately. Would have called 911, but it was not a typical situation , you have to know the adress, it wa snot easy access the house . Walgren ask if it's better to leave a voicemail on MAW'w voicemail ?

Dr White says CM should have called 911 sooner, but it wouldn't have made a difference in this case

How long would it take you to call 911 ? He start ressusitating, and call 911 within 3 to 5 mn.

Dr White says he doesn't tthink everything CM told the police is true.

In an emergency situation, it'ss often difficult to recall details. CM overlooked propofol. Didn't do it in a devious way. Walgren suggests the other option is that he lied, Dr white reluctantly agrees

A letter containing preliminary thoughts is the only doc he gave the defense, he did talk to them.

Sedatives analgesic increase the risk of propofol.

Benzos increase the risk : it depends on when they were given .

Dr White says that a gigh concentration of lorazepam + 25mg propofol given too fast causes arrythmia, and a rapid demise.

CM bought propofol , but Dr White says that MJ had his own stocks of propofol.

Walgren : where is it in CM's statement ? CM told that to Dr White

Showing defense's VV (long vented tubing) : the cap was broken off. A plastic cap that covers the hole is missing. Dr white didn't do that. Now people 157 (recovered from scene) , has the cap in place.

David Walgren shows that peoples 157 is easily concealable, fits in the hand, in the pocket. Dr White admits to that.

Speculated that MJ drank propofol, now rejects that's the cause of death , there was propofol in the stomach, now rejects that MJ drank propofol because Dr Shafer explained why there could be propofol in the stomach. Mentions the Chilean study, were one subject was a little sedated after drinking propofol.

Back to the March 8th 2011 and his 3 page letter : Dr White did it in a very short time , Flanagan needed something in writing within 2 days. Had recieved experts reports and other material to prepare it. Did not write any other report in 7 months. He doesen't say in the letter it's a preliminary opinion. In the letter, said MJ self administered, either injecting himself, or orally. Prior to writing the letter, did a search for oral propofol , but did not find anything, had seen there was propofol in stomach content from autopsy report.
Mr Flanagan raised the issue of oral propofol before he wrote the letter.
You came with the only option to blame the victim ? If CM had only given, there has to be something else.

Now you blame MJ for Lorazepam : yes , after Dr Shafer's report .

You took everything that CM said as the truth ? Yes

Dr White said MJ died of a rapid bolus, but never wrote it in a report/letter.

Have you come up with any theory aother than attributing the drug intake to MJ ? No

CM possibly overlooked the propofol, or lied. Dr White takes evrything CM says about the drug administration as the truth, because it's consitent with the autopsy report

Dr gabriella Onellis : she'e a Phd, biomedical engineering.met her for the first time last week. Asked her if she could calculate the amount of free propofol you would expect the urine after a 3 hour 100 ml infusion.

Break

MichaelHistory

White还可以再无耻一点吗！

迈迈笑笑

什么时候结束，

不想再听他们满嘴的乱喷

斜阳漠漠

因为收了钱，“异丙酚之父”现在开始说莫里不拨打911电话也是可以理解的……

天哪，这还是人类的智商吗？？