【迈克尔杰克逊的私密录音节选版】犹太牧师出的书 MJ心灵告白

lovelymj

第21节：恐惧

翻译: maryruan  校对: BestMJ/ lovelymj

SB：你会心存恐惧吗？比如说你知道人们想要打倒你，你会害怕吗？

MJ: 作为艺人的我不会。我像是一头狮子。没有什么可以伤害我，没有我的允许谁也不能伤害我。我不会为这事儿烦心，尽管过去我被深深伤害过、触痛过，当然也被从中拯救过。

SB：你现在没有生活在恐惧之中，是吗？

MJ：没有

SB：你觉得是孩子教给我们不要害怕吗？一方面，他们也害怕，怕狗啊，怕黑啊，等等；另一方面，他们不害怕去爱，去需要。

MJ：我们去听、去观察，去学习。我们敞开心扉、思想和灵魂。是的，我们能够（从孩子身上去）学，但你也必须要认识到。。。。。

SB：成人常常比孩子有更多恐惧。

MJ：没错…会使你神经崩溃的那种。成人常常以很多方式折腾自己，比如担心某件事情直到把身体搞垮。如果孩子们有他们非常想要的东西，他们会一直说，一直说 直到得到那个东西，因为他们没有别的方式。（他们会说到）你让步为止，这非常可爱。我常常跟他们说：“如果这就是你生命中最需要担心的事，那你就是个幸运儿。如果这是你最大的问题，那你真幸运啊。”在未来的某天你会意识到，在当时那确实对他们很重要，这很可爱。那可能只是最简单的事情，真棒啊。

SB：所以我想要说的是：一方面，有许多事情使你害怕(Michael曾告诉我他怕狗)，这些是典型的小孩子才会怕的东西。顺便说一句，你对恐惧的喜爱就像是亚当和夏娃。你知道他们喜欢冒险。上帝对他们说：“这就是禁果拉，它很危险。” 而恰恰是这个原因让他们想要偷食禁果。一方面，你害怕凶恶的狗。

MJ：是的，我不喜欢(恶狗)那样的东西，它让我害怕。或者，如果你把保护宝宝的母狮逼到死角…我不知道人们是不是管那些宝宝叫小狮子还是什么…母狮被逼上绝路了，它会保护自己的地盘，所以你不能再过去了，你不能过界。我不明白，当人们拿着枪射杀大象的时候…小象每次都惊慌失措，它们尖叫着乱成一团。它们的妈妈倒在血泊中，小象就像疯了一样团团转。我不明白人类怎么能这么做，这深深的伤害了我，太凄惨了。

SB：你在非洲的时候会去观察野生动物么？

MJ：会阿，会阿。

SB：你会接近有危险性的动物吗？

MJ：会啊。

SB：你不害怕？

MJ：不害怕，才不。我喜欢观察野生动物。特别喜欢。

SB：所以你看，这种恐惧挺矛盾的：你害怕蜘蛛，害怕那些小孩子会害怕的东西，但是你却不怕狮子。

MJ:不怕，狮子很迷人。

SB：在Neverland，我看见你离一条眼镜蛇只有一尺之遥，记得吗？

MJ：是的，还有响尾蛇，我们还摸了摸它。响尾蛇非常非常(危险)…我是说，它能杀了你。

SB：那你还是不害怕这样的东西？

MJ：那些对人类有危险的东西很让我着迷。拿鲨鱼来说，为什么我们这么迷恋鲨鱼？因为它能致人于死地。当你喊道： “看，鲨鱼”，每个人都会说：“哪呢？什么？谁 啊？”。你知道的，如果你说“一条梭鱼”，没人会关心，你就明白了“(因为这)只是小东西而已”。（喜欢那些危险的东西）是由于它们的危险性，还有那些传说，那些民间故事。我喜欢所有这样的东西…我想我喜欢PT Barnum(貌似是个娱乐泰斗)所喜欢的东西，你知道的，能吸引人的，我喜欢这个…这就是我喜欢魔术的原因，还有霍华德•休斯(好莱坞冒险家)。这些我都喜欢。

SB：尽管这样，你最怕什么？我知道你害怕坏人，你不喜欢坏人。

MJ：我不喜欢又高又大的坏人，他们看起来很有攻击性。这也是我为什么讨厌那个人，你知道的那个谁。当他问我话的时候，那伤害了我，我根本不喜欢这样。一个人怎么能粗鲁成他那样？如果那是他的想法，他自己留着好了，别说出来。(Rabbi没道破他们谈论的是谁)

SB：你不喜欢高大的、爆脾气的好斗…的人吗？(M同学：拜托，谁喜欢啊)

MJ：不喜欢。在我的世界中，他们一直很坏。尽管也有一些温柔的大个子们，可是那些高个儿通常会让我觉得讨厌。

SB:但是你的保镖是高个子啊…(M 同学：先生，你跑偏了              L 同学：没事儿，等会儿咱家迈跑得更偏。)

MJ：他们是挺高的…

SB:但是他们很好啊…

MJ：对，我要确保他们是好人。他们也必须是绅士。并且他们都知道，如果小孩走上前来，你不能把他们打发走。如果孩子过来要签名，你要礼貌的铺开红地毯(欢迎他们)。他们都知道，这个很重要。我指的是，白兰度除了给孩子们签名外谁也不给，除非是小孩，否则不签名。我觉得这样做很甜蜜，你可知道？

SB：你还害怕什么？

MJ：还害怕什么，嗯…(考虑中)

SB：狗。我不明白为什么小孩子会害怕某些东西。(讲了关于他女儿Baba的一个故事，说她在电视上看见一个怪物就开始又哭又叫)

MJ：什么节目？(M同学：呵呵，跑题挺快啊)

SB：我想是“穿黑衣的BEN”之类的

MJ：哦~~~~ （L同学: 这孩子估计也看过），看的DVD么？但是其他的孩子对这个还好么?他们知道那只是一个电影，不是真的么？

SB：是啊，我并不真的允许他们看这些，可是他们设法拿到了，所以我和他们一起看。。Baba看到第一个人就。。。。

MJ:是的。那个不适合Baba。Prince 和Paris喜欢“侏罗纪公园”，尽管片中有暴力和枪战。但是我想让他们看好的影片。不需要看太多，只要看伟大的电影，伟大的艺术。

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第22节：生活在玻璃鱼缸里

翻译: jessicayang  校对: BestMJ/ lovelymj

SB: 关于名望呢？你对名望的弊端有什么看法？名气会给你带来哪些不喜欢的东西呢？

MJ: 我不喜欢自己变成一个偶像，我跻身名流之后成为一个偶像，一个四海皆知的特殊的人，（我并不耻于这么说）。然而嫉妒随之而来。我曾经见过一些非常可怕的嫉妒心理。

SB: 你从其他名人身上察觉过这种嫉妒么，这很容易感应到么？换句话说你在离他们很远的地方就能感受得到么？

MJ: 我见到过。但是一旦他们跟你面对面的接触的时候，他们总是，总是会改变。他们会发现我跟他们原先想的那个男人根本不一样。有些人在见到我之后，真真切切的在我面前哭泣。有一些粉丝会这样，而且通常有两种类型的粉丝。一种会说：“哦 我的上帝！我的上帝！我的上帝！”然后他们会晕倒，你得扶住他们。而另一种就会突然说一句：“你好”。我就会说：“你好，很高兴见到你，你叫什么名字？”他们会告诉你他们的名字，可是那时候他们还是对我有点看法的。我只是简单的温柔相待，然后他们就开始哭泣。我说：“你们为什么哭呢？”他们会说：“因为我们没想到你人这么好。” 然后他们离开时我在他们心中就变成了与开始想象的不一样的一个人。我也会问：“那你们觉得我应该是怎样的？”他们说：“我觉得你会自大而且傲慢。”“我说：”请别总是轻易去判断别人，我绝不是那样的。“他们会对此印象深刻。我保证他们离开的时候会十倍，甚至是千倍的爱你。我想任何东西都无法战胜友善和爱，就是这么简单。

SB: 你总是能以友善和爱来融化一颗坚硬的心么？

MJ: 是的。

SB: 那些来自于其他明星的嫉妒呢，在你的职业生涯中这种嫉妒心理多么？

MJ: 有很多。他们欣赏你并且知道你很棒很优秀是因为他们妒忌，因为他们也想成为你这样的人。”M"就是其中之一，麦当娜就是其中的一个。她嫉妒我。她是女的，是一个女人，我想这困扰着她。我想女人们不会为了另一个女人而疯狂，男人们也不会轻易动感情会去为一个女人尖叫。我得到了这样疯狂的喜爱和崇拜但她却没有。

SB: 嫉妒是不分角色地位的么？有些高手会让你更加拼命努力，你嫉妒过他们么？

MJ: 从来没有，只是敬佩，纯粹的敬佩。

SB: 所以和嫉妒相比，羡慕能带来更伟大的成就。因为那是积极的。所以你会看着Fred Astaire（注：美国著名电影演员，舞蹈家，以优雅高贵的舞姿著称，曾被誉为“最伟大的舞蹈艺术家”，于1987年逝世）然后说：“我也能做到。”

MJ: 是，就是这样。就是一种激励，不是嫉妒。嫉妒的心理是错误的，但是人们会去嫉妒，不是么？人们不是经常看到一个人做的很棒然后就会非常妒忌么？

SB:  当然，但是你从没有这样的想法么？

MJ: 我不明白有这种想法的人。
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SB: 对你来说从来都是激励么？你总是心怀敬畏与惊叹的来看待那些天赋异禀的人么？

MJ: 你觉得一个人会妒忌上帝么？(Ｊ同学：其实我觉得迈已经有点无奈了……）

SB: 当然。看看斯大林和希特勒，他们就想成为上帝，他们想决定人们的生死。

MJ:  Wow.

SB: 因为他们失去了感知敬畏的能力。（之后SB说关于那些人成为上帝的敌人之类，略掉）除了嫉妒之外，还有什么名人效应是你所不喜欢的？

MJ:有名。（Ｊ同学：觉得跟没回答一样，呵呵）

SB: 你是否也不喜欢不能正常地走在街上？

MJ: 并不是。我挺喜欢人们认出你然后友好地跟你说：“你好”，然后会有一群人围着你之类的。

SB: 当我跟你一起坐在车里离开酒店时，Michael, 有两次我们都看一个黑人小孩子骑着自行车，在纽约最危险的街道上跟了我们四～五英里， 就是为了要你的签名。然后你让车停了下来确保他得到了签名。在跟克林顿总统吃过饭后，我们也看到另外三个孩子跟着车跑了一英里直到你对司机说：“停车。”然后你来给他们签了名。你经常遇到这样的人？

MJ:  哦，天哪，Shmuely,有时候会有上百的人这样做。比你所见的要槽糕得多得多。他们会开始毁坏东西，然后事态看起来就像是暴动。（我想在这迈不是想说什么fans的不好，他只是讨厌那些搞破坏的人，再说如果真是王的fans也不会那么没素质）

SB: （当我们走出卡内基音乐厅时我就在Micheal旁边，我可以保证他差点没被撕碎）
       所以只要人们表现友好，你都会高兴地被认出来么？

MJ: 我认为我们作为名流的工作，我认为任何人，包括雕塑家，作家，画家，歌手，还有舞者这些被上帝赐予特殊天分的人就是为了带给人们欢乐和暂时抛开现实的感觉。那就是我们的使命，带来快乐。

SB: 还有什么是你对作为名人所讨厌的？显然，你讨厌那些小报消息？

MJ: 当然讨厌。我讨厌做那些事的蠢蛋（jerks)。我认为种族歧视，嫉妒，邪恶有一部分就是小报散布出来的。他们把消极挫败的情绪带给那些想做些有意义事情的人们，这真是糟糕。如果真有人相信那些东西，那他就是疯了。我的意思是我真希望有种方法能彻底清除这些东西。

lovelymj

第23节：雄心和耐心，嫉妒和宽恕，对媒体的愤怒

翻译: maryruan  校对: BestMJ/ lovelymj

SB：我看到了人们怎么不择手段的和你扯上关系，他们想要沾你的光来成名。他们想要被(公众)看到和你在一起，被拍到和你一起。但是有些接近你的人又来伤害你，控告你。你有没有碰到过他们过来和你说：“我真的很抱歉，我利用了你，对不起？”你有过这样的关于宽恕的经历吗？

MJ：我希望有，我希望人们是这样甜蜜，能承认他们做过的错事。

SB：一个也没有么？从未有过么？没一个人过来说“对不起Michael，那天晚上的聚会上我说我很了解你，其实不是那么了解，我利用了你的名声来出头”？你有没有听别人说起：“噢，是啊，我和这个家伙说起了你，他说他非常了解你，他说他是你最好的朋友。”但是你却从未听说过他？

MJ：经常有。有时为了不伤他们的心，我就认同了，就像我真认识他们正在谈论的那个人一样，因为我不想是那个人难堪。（L同学：哭死了，人家利用你，迈迈阿，你咋还担心不让人难堪呢？）

SB：所以你会说“对的，我认识你说的那个人”。

MJ：但是我真正想的是：我真的不知道你们说的是谁啊。（这里迈迈用了who the heck,好委婉哦。。。。连hell都不说。。）

SB：没一个曾经伤害你的人过来请求你的宽恕吗？(跳过若干) 可是Michael，在你一生中有没有过必须去原谅一个人？你原谅过一个没有请求你原谅的人吗？你原谅过伤害过你的人吗？(M同学：这位先生比唐僧还啰嗦)

MJ：当着他们的面？

SB：从你心底(原谅)。

MJ：当然。

SB：你看到过一个卑鄙小人，而且你总能原谅他们。

MJ：是的。因为圣经告诉我：“原谅他们，因为他们不知道自己在做什么”。所以，就原谅。(M同学：宽容的MIKE，让人动容)

SB：你觉得在这方面你做得很好？

MJ：是的。

SB：所以现今的你，在心里不会对任何人生气？

MJ：我对媒体生气。我非常痛恨、憎恶媒体，我也很讨厌那些故意伤害小孩的人，还有他们在战争中对小孩子做的那些事。我一直试着寻找一种途径来试着对这样的情况做些事情。

SB：那么宽恕呢？有人伤害了你。孩子们确实打架，但他们不记仇。你能真心实意地原谅那些伤害你的人吗？(这位先生真执着)

MJ：能。

SB：甚至我都不能做到这样。但是我跟你提起Roseanne Barr，因为我上过她的电视节目，通常是客座嘉宾，后来我看见她无端地对你进行负面评价。

MJ：她对我很不好，这就是为什么我在犹豫(可能是犹豫要不要上她节目)。

(Rabbi大谈他和Roseanne的友谊，并且对Michael没有跟他说Roseanne的坏话，即使她伤害Michael在先而大加赞赏，Michael沉默不语，没和Rabbi谈论她)

SB：你可以跟我说说这个话题。（L同学：= =！ 执著的套迈迈的话阿。咱家迈能上当么？明明就不喜欢她，也不想撒谎，所以就。。。。）

MJ：我不会恶意攻击她。

SB：我明白了。你能原谅他们吗？在他们心里，也是没有恶意的。

MJ：你知道的，耶稣说：“他们不知道他们在干嘛”。他们甚至不认识我。他们的所作所为根本站不住脚，他们怎么能说那些呢…他们甚至不认识我！你相信你读到的那些吗？

SB：所以（你）还是会全盘原谅吗？

MJ：是的，因为Roseanne后来到后台找我，像个可爱的小狗一样，她赞扬我，还说对那些表示抱歉。

SB：你还有其他类似的事例吗？

MJ：麦当娜从未道歉过，她嫉妒。

SB：她想成为世界第一巨星?

MJ：是吧。她在嫉妒。

SB：你不能理解，你也许会说：“你在嫉妒什么啊？你做你的，我做我的…”

MJ: 但同时，她又会来看我的演唱会，还会哭。她在那，并因为一首歌曲及我的演绎而泪流满面。在她身上有些好的品质。

SB：在她身上有好的品质。但你的意思是她的嫉妒蒙盖这些好品质。但是如果有人这样做了，他们甚至不必向你请求原谅，因为你总会原谅他们的？

MJ：是的。

SB：我看到过你和杰雷诺(NBC的脱口秀主持人)开玩笑，(那时)你和伊丽莎白泰勒参加一个慈善义演，你当时穿了一件红外套。

MJ：棕色的外套。

SB：你看见了杰雷诺，而且还…

MJ:他当时和我还有福特总统、西尔维斯特•史泰龙(动作明星)、伊丽莎白泰勒以及西德尼•波蒂埃(只是一个演员)坐同一张桌。当他走过来坐下的时候，我就走过去，开玩笑地(作势)掐他的脖子 [因为他总是讲Michael的负面笑话]，他就“嗯嗯啊啊。”伊丽莎白泰勒于是跟他说：“你说过Michael的坏话吧？”，他就“啊？”。后来那天晚上，他和我握手，眼神温暖友善。（不过）第二天他给我的办公室发了封信，信上说“Michael说他会来我的脱口秀。你们能否安排一下，让他能上我们的节目？”。我从没说过那话，所以不知道该怎么解围。但我不会把他叫到一边恶意的回嘴，我只是禁不住做了那个事(指和杰雷诺开玩笑)[大笑]。

SB:真可爱，每个人都看到了？

MJ：是的，他们都看见了。话说他脖子很粗，我的手几乎拢不过来呢。(M同学：哈哈，够粗的)

SB：伊丽莎白泰勒这么维护你，你觉得怎样？她像是你多年的挚友了，在童真特质方面，她怎么样？

MJ：我们来自同样的地方…

SB:她很忠诚？

MJ：她很忠诚。我们一样，她能够和我来自的地方产生共鸣。她很好奇，你看看她的眼睛就知道的。就像是心电感应，你能感受到，真的，我们初次见面时，不说一句话，只能感觉到，就像是和秀兰邓波儿。我们是一个世界的人。


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第24节：MJ与歌迷间的爱：相濡以沫

翻译: 飞扬清婉  校对: BestMJ/ lovelymj


SB: 让我谈一下这个。你在孩提时代受过一些伤害，没有得到你所需的爱，你是怎样克服这些缺憾的？你是怎样学着去弥补你所不能享有的那些基本的东西的？

MJ: 我想音乐与舞蹈给了我很多帮助，那就象治疗一样。（我可以）通过歌曲表达自己的感受，在舞台上释放激情，并且得到了歌迷百倍回报的爱。

SB: 这弥补了你所没有得到的？

MJ: 是的。因为当一个歌迷走过来，真的，某个人走近你并且说：“我非常爱你。”这会让我感觉很好。我永远都不会厌倦听到这些。

SB: 真的吗？你是否会觉得有些狂热的歌迷，为了试图接近你，有时会做得太过火？

MJ: 不，不会的，我喜欢这些。我爱我的歌迷。我爱他们的每分每毫，当我看到他们支持我关于家庭与孩子的理念时，我太开心了。他们做了很多孩子和婴儿的大图片，我一直保存着。他们理解我。你知道吗？他们确实理解我想表达的。

SB: 所以你从歌迷那里得到了没有从父母那里获得的东西，但这有一个很大的区别。父母应该给予孩子的是无条件的爱，即使你什么人也不是。有一次有人问比尔克林顿的母 亲，Virginia Kelly，她喜欢哪个儿子多些，比尔还是罗杰？比尔成为了总统，可以让她骄傲。罗杰吸毒，是个游手好闲的父亲。

MJ:她有不止一个孩子？

SB: 罗杰是比尔克林顿的兄弟。

MJ: 他吸毒？

SB: 是的。我还知道他因为贩卖毒品坐过牢。

MJ: 真的哦？

SB: 并且他有了孩子后也依然游手好闲。（中间跳过）。她（他母亲）被问到“一个儿子是个懒汉，一个儿子是总统，你是否爱比尔多些？”她回答道：“你在说什么？ 你糊涂了吗？我两个儿子都爱，我对他们的爱是同样的。”所以迈克尔，歌迷对你的爱与家人对你的爱是有区别的。父母的爱是无条件的，歌迷爱你是因为你能够唱歌、跳舞。或许你真的能从歌迷那里获得无条件的爱吗？

MJ: 这很难判断，因为我不是他们。恩，我想当他们发现我是什么人，以及我是怎样看待他们的，我所做的让他们对自己感觉良好时，他们会无条件爱我的。我知道他们会 的，我能感觉到，我能看到。你同我一起出去几次，就会碰到那些死忠的歌迷，你会看到一些东西。这难以置信，就象一种宗教体验。他们睡在大街上，手举蜡烛， 带着全家人在那里。这一切非常美妙，我喜欢看到他们带着孩子来，这让我心里感觉非常快乐。

SB:问题的关键就在于他们最初爱上你时是因为你的歌曲与舞蹈，但之后他们超过了那个界限。

MJ: 是的，他们发现我是怎样的人，以及我想传递给他们的……在音乐中有超越节奏与旋律的信息，一些具有相当深度的东西。

SB: 为什么你会有这么狂热的歌迷？我能说一下他们有多狂热吗？我没给你看过，可是我写了那篇关于你、梦幻庄园以及你的生日的文章之后，我们收到了成百上千封的电子邮件。你真得看看。他们中的半数建了自己的Michael Jackson网站。看起来有成千上万个的Michael Jackson网站。

MJ: 是的，是的。

SB: 你是怎样做到这些的？我是说说每个人都有自己的拥埠。那一天我们谈到辣妹，她们确实有过很多歌迷，但现在这些歌迷哪去了？为什么你有这么多死忠的歌迷？

MJ: 我想，我不是那种只流行于一时的艺术家，上帝赋予了我某些天赋，这种天赋让人们、公众同我一起成长。当他们同我一起成长时，那更象一种情感上的联系，他们愿意接近我就好像我是他们的兄弟一样。我让人们走近我说“Michael!”，同我谈话，抓着我就象我是他们的兄弟姐妹一样。我是这样做的，你知道，你得习惯这样。 他们真的感觉你是属于他们的。

SB: 就象你是非常熟悉他们的人？

MJ: 是的，终我一生我都需要习惯这些。因为我在他们房间墙壁上，他们每天早上都听到我，我的图片到处都是，就象一个殿堂。有些宗教人士说这是偶像崇拜，但我不 认为这是偶像崇拜。（译注：基督教禁止崇拜偶像，这里的偶像崇拜是指宗教意义的，不是我们通常讲的喜欢某个歌星影星类的）

SB: 好的，但为什么不是偶像崇拜？

MJ: 我从来没有写过，也从没有听说过（我的歌迷宣称我是神）。也许确实有旗帜标语上写着“你是神”。我们确实有类似那样的录影，但从没有在电视上放过。我们有一些标语旗帜上写着那些，但我不认为这是坏事，因为我所讲的是爱，拯救家庭……

（跳过SB的废话）

SB: 所以这不是偶像崇拜，因为你把自己归类为一种更高价值意义，并宣称自己代表了这些？

MJ: 我确实代表了更高的意义。我不是宣称我是神，但我在传播关于拯救地球，拯救世界，拯救我们的孩子，拯救森林的理念。这些并没有错，不是吗？

（跳过SB的废话）

SB: 对我来说这就是偶像崇拜。

MJ:好吧，但我不是这样看的。

SB: 相反的一面就是“我可能是个英雄，但我是个为更高理念奋斗的英雄。”

MJ: 如果你看过我的演出，你就会知道这根本不是关于我本人的。巨大的屏幕上播放的是人们砍伐雨林，饥饿的孩子伸出无助的手。那情景很动人，人们的情绪被感染了并开始哭泣，那非常激动人心。

（译注：文章提供者的话）
我眼里全是泪水……啊。Renee与我决定跳过第四部分---SB与Katherine Jackson的对话，因为没有什么新的与有价值的东西了。一些基本事实：Michael接受了洗礼，只有他与Rebbie接受了。Katherine觉 得Michael有点象她一样软弱，所以她总对MJ说不要象她，MJ太好心并很难向人们说“不”这一点让她有点受不了。

lovelymj

第25节：恋爱关系、想要成为你的女朋友

翻译: BigBee  校对:  lovelymj

SB: 你知道小孩们怎么经常做结婚的游戏么？他们会告诉你他们爱上班级里某个人了。小孩似乎天生就很浪漫，你也总是很罗曼蒂克么？

MJ: 我并不是故意去做，可也不是不浪漫，我只做我自己。

SB: 小孩总会有自己的初恋的，他们会彼此相互爱慕，在班级里传字条。

MJ: 我认为那甜美可爱。

SB: 你喜欢制造浪漫么？你是一个喜欢给别人做媒的家伙么？

MJ: 不，我从不这么做。人家太害羞嘛，从不做这种事情。我非常像我妈妈，我们常常问母亲“你亲吻爸爸么？” 她会说：“别问我这些问题啦。”然后我们追问：“妈妈你到底亲他么？”她说：“我不要谈论这样的问题啦。”之后我们又问 ：“好吧，你是怎么遇到爸爸的？谁让你们结婚的？”

SB: 所以你成长的环境使你对于爱与浪漫的理解是矜持而又庄重的？

MJ: 是的，我们从不说这些。

SB: 你曾结过两次婚，Michael.你还相信爱情么? 或者说你有过伤心的经历，因此你很难去相信了？

MJ:不，我相信爱情, 我只是羞于表达而已. 我们谁也没让父母去参加自己的婚礼。我们不信那个，我们太羞怯了。我永远也不敢让妈妈参加我的婚礼的。如果我妈坐在那里，我就无法将结婚仪式进行下去了。这就是为什么我们都逃出去，然后秘密的结婚。我妈妈会在报纸上知道，她不会介意的。因为我们都和她一样，换做是她的话，她也会做同样的事情
。
SB: 所以爱必须是种隐藏起来的感觉？

MJ: 这是种很私人的，朦胧模糊的情感。

SB: 凡是模糊的事情都是很私人的么？

MJ: 是的。

SB: (告诉迈在恋爱这件事上不要过分躲藏，他的父母毫无疑问应当参加他的婚礼)所以说你相信爱情，但是父母的教育使你羞于表达？

MJ: 人家害羞嘛. 我不了解对我这个有多擅长，因为我害羞啊。在这件事上我和有些人不一样，我听说有的男人和女孩子在一起的时候真的会很诗情画意，总是会说“宝贝这，宝贝那”。我不是那种类型的男人。这种事我会简单的直接说出重点。（小L不厚道的猜想：直接说出重点？哦哈哈哈。。。。）

SB: 当你做音乐录影带时，如果你想要表达浪漫爱意之类的场景，你会怎么办？

MJ: 这就是我要亲自选女演员的原因，我要觉得她们可爱才行。如果我喜欢她们，我就可以做出很好的音乐录影，就像你在我的短片中看到的一些女孩子，我选择她们因为我真的很喜欢她们。可是这后来就成了一个问题，因为她们也开始喜欢我了。但是我对他们并不是那种喜欢，所以这件事有时会造成问题。

SB: 你可能一直会遇到这种问题，这不仅仅因为你的名气。还因为你是那种女人想和你在一起的男人：你很温柔，绅士，而且不害怕表达自己的情感。女人会为这样不惧怕显露自己的脆弱和温柔的男人去死的（大胡子老爹你 也嫉妒了吧，欲火焚身啊~）然而在好莱坞许多男人总是很自私自利，无法做出承诺。 所以你总能看到这种事情发生，女人死追烂打的纠缠。

MJ: 你啥意思嘛？

SB: 就像你说的， 拍短片应该是职业方面的事情。你只是和女演员合拍一部片子，但是到后来她们却粘上你。

MJ: 的确，有这样的事发生。

SB: 那你是如何把自己并不那样喜欢她们的消息告诉她们呢？

MJ: 当她们看到我走上另一个方向的时候她们就知道了。她们中的一些人会满世界的追逐我的脚步，这太辛苦了。

SB: 那可能会让她们更想要追逐你，因为她们会为你大男孩的害羞而更加弥足深陷。但是我认为过一段时间之后，她们发现你总是躲着她们，她们就会懂的。但是你从未直接的告诉她们别这么做么？

MJ: 不，因为那太伤她们的心了。

= ========================================================================
第26节：爱情的火花与懵懂的爱

翻译: 飞扬清婉  校对:  lovelymj


Michael与SB一起参加了一个“黑领结”庆祝聚会。（译注：black-tie黑领结，指需要打黑领结穿礼服的正式聚会或晚会场合）

SB: 昨晚Cindy Crawford想从你这得到什么？（译注：Cindy Crawford 辛迪 克劳福德，美国著名模特，90年代非常走红）

MJ: 我远远看见过Cindy几次，她与其他人在一起，我们曾经在其几个场合见过……都是隔得比较远那种。我想她可能觉得这是她真正认识我的机会。她也许崇拜我。过来的人有很多。所以你看到的没什么特别。

SB: 你见过象这样的名人举止，象一群狗一样，追逐比他们更有名的人吗？很失身份。

MJ: 是的。还有更糟的。

SB: 她同你讲了什么？

MJ: [模仿Crawford]“你好吗？”我说：“我很好。”“哦，你确认你很好吗？哦，我喜欢你的作品，我喜欢你所做的。你会在城里待多久？”我说：“我在这里工作。我正在录音。”

SB: 你觉得她是不是对你有意思？

MJ: 是的，我觉得可能有点。

SB: 她约你出去了吗？

MJ: 那些女孩会调情的……她们在调情。她很漂亮。

SB: 这太露骨了。昨天同桌的一个银行家对我说：“当Cindy Crawford走近时，她同媒体报道中的形象完全不同，就是另外一个女孩儿。” 我说:“可是她在这里做什么?”

MJ: 你看到Donald Trump走过来吗？（译注：Donald Trump 唐纳德 特拉蒙普，美国房地产大亨，制作与主持过“飞黄腾达”学徒秀节目）

SB: 现在他是个很有趣的男人。

MJ: 我真正喜欢与尊敬的是象戴安娜王妃这样类型的女人。

SB: 为什么？

MJ: 她很有品位，对人们、孩子和世界上发生的苦难的关心是真正发自内心的。她不是在做秀。她让自己的孩子象其他人一样排队等候，我喜欢她这样做的方式。

SB: 那我们能否说这有一点纯洁浪漫的吸引力？你同意这样讲吗？你是否只是想说她是一个非常特别的女人？

MJ: 她非常特别

SB: 她是那种很有女人味的女人吗？

MJ: 非常有女人味并且时髦漂亮。她绝对是适合我的类型。我不喜欢大部分女孩，只有极少数女孩是我喜欢的类型。只有非常特别的女孩才能让我觉得开心，她绝对是其中之一。

SB: 因为她对孩子们的爱？

MJ: 要找到一个和自己极其相似的人很难，一个极其相似的人。人们总说差异导致吸引，我认为这确实有道理。但我想找到一个同我有很多相似之处的人，同我有相同的兴趣，愿意帮助别人，同我一起去医院，照顾象Gavin这样的孩子。这就是为什么你看到我和Lisa Marie总在做此类事的原因。她也关心同样的东西。

SB: 你曾经想过邀请戴安娜王妃一块出去吗？

MJ: 绝对有想过。

SB: 那为什么你没有邀她外出呢？

MJ: 我一生都未主动邀请过女孩外出。都是她们约我的。（L插话：苍天呐，傻迈，戴安娜王妃咋能主动约你出去啊？）

SB: 真的吗？

MJ: 我没办法向一个女孩提出这样的请求。

SB: 如果是她主动约你外出呢？

MJ: 我绝对会去。每次你看到我和波姬小丝一起都是她约我的。每次都是她的主意一块出去。我确实也喜欢波姬小丝。我很喜欢她。

SB: 她喜欢孩子吗？

MJ: 是的。我的第一个女朋友，Tatum O’Neal，她因为电影“纸月亮”获得奥斯卡奖。那时候我16岁，她13岁。我那时很单纯。她想要做所有的事，但我根本不想发生性关系，因为耶和华见证教的一些价值观的原因。我说：“你疯了吗？”。那些价值观中的一点就是对任何人都要友好。当我拉着Tatum的手时，那感觉很奇妙，比任何其他事都好，比吻她或其他任何事都好。当Ryan O’Neal（译注：可能是Tatum的兄弟）与我去俱乐部看一个乐队演出，她在桌子底下握住我的手，我感觉要被融化了。这好似魔法，我们之间迸发着火花。这就是那时候我想要的全部了。但对现在的孩子来讲这根本没意义。她有点早熟，对有些事不那么无知，而我喜欢那种无知纯洁的感觉。

再来谈波姬小丝。她是我生命中的爱人之一。我们约会过很多次。我的房间的墙壁与镜子都挂满了她的照片。我与Diana Ross一起出席奥斯卡颁奖，她直接走到我面前说：“嗨，我是波姬小丝。你会参加颁奖礼后的聚会吗？”我说：“是的。”，感觉自己已经被融化了。我那时23 岁，在“Off the Wall”专辑时期。我想：“她知道我把她的照片挂满了房间吗？”后来我们去了聚会，她问：“可以和我跳舞吗？”。我们就一起去舞池跳舞，然后天哪，我们交换了电话号码， 我一整晚都兴奋得不行，在自己的房间里旋转，非常开心。她很有时髦漂亮。在我们这么亲密之前，我们偶遇过一次，但那时我太羞涩而临阵退缩了。我其实不应当那样的。

至于Lisa，我们仍然是朋友，但她总是四处忙碌。她刚换了电话号码，我们还不知道新号码。

SB: 你能你能立刻识别出（人性中的）纯真吗？

MJ: 立刻就能，尽管我从女人身上发现纯真要多费些气力，因为她们都很圆滑（smooth）。但从男人身上，我一般都能直接看出来。因为他们更开放，就象小狗，而女孩子就象小猫。你知 道如果你度假回家，小狗会一直围在你身边，而猫咪则是“嘿，我不需要你。你自己过来抱我吧”，她们会做出姿态，尽管已经三个月没见，但她们会径直走过不理你。女 人都很聪明，华尔特迪斯尼总是说她们比男人更聪明，所以他雇的女员工要比男的多。

lovelymj

Love the world；love our children

lovelymj

Love the world；love our children

lovelymj

Part 3- Fame in adulthood
THINKING ABOUT AMBITION, SUCCESS, AND HONESTY
-------------------------------

SB: So ambition can be a good thing so long as it is not ruthless, so long as it doesn't involve jealousy and envy?

MJ:Yeah, so long as it is not hurting anybody. Ambition is a wonderful thing. To know how the mind works and the power of thought and how we create our own circumstances in life. And to know all those goodies about the brain because we don't come with instructions when we are born. You have to find the truth to life and once you know those things, it's amazing you know your possibilities.

SB: So you want to foster that ambition in children, not stifle it?

MJ:They have it. You have to just will them on.

SB:Let's talk about honesty. One of the most childlike qualities is brutal honesty. Sometimes telling our children the truth hurts. But they always say it as it is. Especially before they're old enough to learn how to lie.If you are fat they will say you are fat. If you are ugly they will say you are ugly. If you smell they will say you smell. Is that always a good thing, or do we have to be more diplomatic?

MJ:I think we have to teach them to be kind and teach them how you can hurt other people's feelings. We went there [to the recording studio]
yesterday, Prince and I. One of the musicians who works with me is fat, very fat, and Prince said, "He has a stomach which looks like a balloon." I said, "Prince, you are right. But if you see him don't say it in front of him because you could make him cry." He said, "Okay, I promise." Just teach him that you can't hurt people.

SB:Okay, but what about encouraging our children to tell the truth? So you are not saying to Prince that that is not true because that is not a childlike quality to make him lie. You are just saying sometimes you hold the truth inside. You didn't say to Prince, "He's actually fine the way he is. He's not fat."

MJ:I did not.

SB:So it's important to be truthful. Let's say you have a musician who isn't up to speed and he is holding back the whole album. What do you do?

MJ:I just went through it in there with the sting players. One lady was playing completely off rhythm and I told the guy, "Let her continue. But the next day we just can't have her come," and she wasn't told that she could come the next day. But we did it quietly.

SB:So you do sometimes have to deal with these difficult situations and you deal with it with honesty but without trying to hurt them.

MJ:You have to do it without hurting them.

SB: So there is a way of being truthful without being painful?

MJ:Absolutely. I don't go on the casting calls for my short films[Michael always called his music videos "short films"]especially when there are children being cast. I don't want to stand there and say, "Okay let's see what you can do," and they do it and they don't get a call back. Then they'll say, "Michael Jackson turned me down." I have somebody else tape everybody and I look at it at home and decide. I cannot face the pain of them not being accepted. I always have to do it that way.

(blah blah)

SB: So, honesty is very important in the way you raise Prince and Paris.

MJ:[Turning to Prince] Doo-Doo has been on that Prince. That's full of doo-doo. Don't put it on your hair. That's the dog doo-doo shovel. Don't put it on your hair.

( gremlin talks about how the tabloids portrayed Michael being germophobe and that that is not true)

SB:By the way did you hear what I said earlier about Paul McCarteny has supposedly one of the biggest cartoon collections? You were saying about these great artists being childlike?

MJ:Yes, yes. He loves cartoons and takes them very seriously. He collects them. Mine is bigger than his now, if you go into the video library we have got rows and rows because I love cartoons. It is a great escape for me, the world of cartoons.

SB: [In thinking about your success] did you say something to yourself? "I was fortunate, it was from God,it is not just me. This is a divie gift. I have no right to be arrogant?"

MJ:Yeah. People always ask me how I didn't let it all go to my head.Um, because obviously it's not me. It's not Michelangelo. He was touched with divine inspiration. That was a gift. I think you can cultivate something to a certain extent. But to be given a real genius, that's like a gift.

( you don't wanna know what this two-faced gremlin ****s here....)

SB: Judgmental people are always small-minded people.They are nitpickers. How did we go from being big to small, Michael? As we mature, our bodies get bigger but often our minds seem to get smaller. Do you feel that children have bigger hearts than adults? What causes them to shrink?-skipping the blah blah-

MJ:You know why, Shmuely? When you have seen the things I have seen and traveled all over the world, you would not be honest to yourself and the world would be that way. I just couldn't see myself not being touched by the things I have seen, like that village in China, and the things I have seen in Africa and Russia and Germany and Israel. ( Michael gave money to a poor lady and told her to feed the cat, she kept her promise but when t was fattened up - she ate it.)

MJ: I remember this newborn baby fighting to live, newborn with all the things in the nose, in a hospital in Israel. How could you heart not go out to something like that? I said to everybody, the kids, everybody, "Come here kids. You have to see this," because I think they understand the sensitivity of how children are important, helping others, reaching out to the world, to the underprivileged. Being materialistic and showing this sense of me-ism all the time [is something I deplore].

SB-(long question he's asking how success didn't go into Michael's head and how was he able to remain sensitive and to be arrogant and why he visits orphanages and how it happened to everybody else who is famous and successful but not to Michael)

MJ: That's hard to answer. I am just more sensitive to people's pain and love. I think it's just inside me.

lovelymj

The Master of Mystery
typed by renee
SB: Alright, I want to speak about something with you which is very crucial to this book. Of all the things I’ve seen about you, I have to tell you, I have never seen anyone who understands the power of mystery the way you do. In other words, in the Jewish religion the use of mystery is very important. The prophet Isaiah says that angels, the Seraphim, have six wings. Why six? Well “With two he covered his face, wand with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew” (Isaiah 6:02). Isn’t hat amazing? The angels are so modest, so mysterious, that they use their wings to cover up.

MJ: That’s beautiful

(rabbi talks about other examples of mystery in the bible)

MJ: I love those stories.

SB: So in the Bible mystery is very important. I’ve never seen anyone who understands the power of mystery like you. I’ll give you some examples and then I want you to comment on them. Number one, my kids are walking around Neverland. There’s candy everywhere. My kids love it because they’ve never seen this, there’s popcorn machines and there’s snow cone machines, and as long as stuff is kosher, they’re eating this and eating that. And although Prince and Paris are surrounded by this stuff, you say to them “No, only on your birthday you can have this.” Grace told us they aren’t allowed to use the swings and all that so that don’t get bored of it. And whenever we go to FAO Schwartz, Prince can buy toys but he has to wait to open them. And especially when it comes to your career, you’ve understood the power of being hidden.

(rabbi talks more about MJ’s career)

SB: So there are two things I want to ask you. Talk to me about mystery and what it means to you and how did you get the discipline to hold back when you know that every TV show wants you? (rabbi talks A LOT to Michael). So talk to me about mystery. How do you know this, where did it come to you, the power of that which is concealed?

MJ: Wow, you’re so observant. It’s amazing how you notice details. Um I studied…I love psychology, I love magic, I love…I love real beauty. I love real talent. I love when something’s miraculous, when something’s so beautiful you shouldn’t get it. What I love about Halley’s comet, and I say this to my lawyer, Halley’s Comet is no more of a miracle than the moon or sun. Nut we make a big deal about it because you see it once in a lifetime and everybody’s out there to see it. You know astronomers and fans and people and it’s this thing that circles around the solar system but you see it once in a lifetime. If it happened every night nobody would care but to me the moon is just as miraculous. I always talk about deer and dogs and cats. A lot of people go “There’s a deer!” ‘cause they’re shy, they’re always hidden. It’s a big deal to see a deer, I mean, and I appreciate that, how people should appreciate real ability and I always say I don’t care if you’re the most talented person in the world, if you come on TV everyday people will regurgitate you. You have to know how to play your audience. You have to know that and it’s true, Shmuley. And it’s not just a game. But it’s real for me, it’s real for me. It really is.

SB: How do you know that?

MJ: [If you remain mysterious, people will be] more interested, yeah.

SB: If a woman is always taking off her top, no one’s going to want to see her breasts.

MJ: That’s right.

SB: But if she does it once in awhile, that’s what makes it exciting. That’s what makes it erotic.

MJ: That’s right.

SB: But when it’s everyday…

MJ: That’s right.

SB: Like you go to African tribes and women ealk topless, it’s nothing.

MJ: Nothing, nothing. Leave something to the imagination. I believe in that and people are all…

SB: Did someone teach you that?

MJ: No, it just, looking at…learning from nature and learning you know, just watching and studying , being a serious observer. And ummm, you can say to somebody, you can go, “There’s 6 doors, you can open any of those. But the 5th door, don’t open it. Don’t open the 5th door, no matter what.” Of course everyone is going, “What’s behind door number 5?” because it’s the great mystery. And that’s, everyone wants to expose door number five because you know…And I love that and it’s not like a game but I want people to appreciate talent and ability. I only do an album every five years. Other artists do an album every year and my albums outlast and outsell all other artists. And people wait for it. There’s like, you know, a whole pulse going on about this album. Its like a fever, they’re waiting, they’re waiting. It’s important to wait.

SB: So what is it about the hidden which makes it outlast the revealed? What is it about holding back that people want it suddenly?

MJ: I just, I love, I do love the power of mystery, I really do. I think it’s very powerful.

SB: Is it spiritual? What is it?

MJ: It’s spiritual, it’s people conjure up all these ideas, people create it themselves. I mean they used to say, Howard Hughes is up there and he owns the hotel but he stays on that floor, he doesn’t come down. He’s in the dark, he’s in the corner in the bed with long nails and hair down to here and he’s hooked to an IV. So the brain would just go crazy conjuring up all kinds of crazy stories, and I love that. I love Howard Hughes ‘cause he played this big thing. I mean, to me he’s like one of my masters. But, I don’t know, this is the first time I’ve ever said this Shmuley, I love Howard, he’s a genius.

SB: Because what? Because he knew the power of mystery?

MJ: How to play people, yeah. He knew how to make the public interested. PT Barnum was pretty good at it himself.

SB: Is it a matter of just withdrawing? (talks about how he debated the writers of the book, The Rules. Asks MJ if he agrees with the philosophy of the book)

MJ: I don’t. I don’t totally agree. It depends on the individual.

SB: But with you, when you say it’s become about playing the public, is it as simple as withdrawal and they want more? And more ways how to reveal yourself?

MJ: It’s rhythm and timing. You have to know what you are doing. Like, you never see me on award shows saying, “The nominees are…” And I get asked to do very show. Now they don’t even ask. They know I don’t do it. They know not to even ask. They know I don't do it. Or to host the next show or to come out and say like, "Coming up next, Michael Jackson to present the record of the year." You never see me coming out and doing the nominees. I don't do it. They know not to even ask me. It's not what I do.

SB: You will never do something which makes you be the means to another end. You’re either the end or you’re not. It’s about either you or you’re not going to be the road.

MJ: Yeah, and I’m not trying to say I’m holy or God or…

SB: But you’re not going to belittle yourself either.

MJ: I’m not going to, I want…you know? People should respect, you know? Ability and talent, and it’s all for the sake of goodness, really cause my message is for goodness.

SB: I agree with you.

MJ: But really, I’m just trying to conserve and preserve…

SB: This, by the way is a while book unto itself, how you have learned the power of the hidden, of the mysterious. Look out in New York. There are hundreds of thousands or women who want to get married and guys won’t commit to the them. And do you know one of the main reasons is because they’ll have sex with them anyway.

(rabbi plugs a book of his)

MJ: Uh huh.

SB: Why would you marry her if you could have her without the commitment? (rabbi bashes women who have sex on the first date) And by the way, that’s what happened with Madonna. Madonna overexposed herself. She’s still a celebrity but she’s not what she was.

MJ: Yeah, I know.

(rabbi goes on bashing Madonna)

SB: There are few people today who understand the power of mystery. You understand it because there is an intuitive spirituality to your nature that is a real gift. Because of this understanding of mystery, and youre understanding of the power of timingm helps us understand the holy. God only reveals very sporadically and at very choice moments. Mystery and timing are central to revelation.

MJ: I love that. That’s one of my favorite things to think about too.

SB: How hidden God is.

MJ: How hidden.

SB: You’ve got to find him.

MJ: You see all his miracles through him but you don’t see his face, himself, you know? You see through the children.

SB: Which makes you more interested in him?

MJ: Yeah.

SB: You want to find him?

lovelymj

MJ: Makes you want to seek him out and find him. Absolutely. I love that. And some people just throw up their hand and go, “What is this all about, the universe and where is he? I want to talk to him and what is it?” You know I love that. He’s the ultimate. He is. He’s the man.

SB: So this is how we stop people from being bored. First of all one more thing before we move on to boredom. So you instinctively knew timing, mystery? You just knew?

MJ: Yeah, it’s true, Shmuley.

SB: It’s not a like a manager pulled you aside and said, “Michael. You can be a big star. Don’t overdo it.

MJ: No. No way.

SB: Did your brothers not understand it?

MJ: No, they don’t understand it. They would jump on anything, any second. If anybody said, “I want to interview you tomorrow about Michael’s new style of dress, “Sure.” ‘Cause they just want to be on TV, to be on TV. I think people appreciate you much more when you, you know conserve, just hold…you know.

SB: Hold back?

MJ: Hold back and build and give yourself a certain kind of class and make them reach out for you and just…I love gates to a house. I love big huge pillars and gates. You don’t know what’s back there beyond the road. You just see these…You know, you go, “God, who lives in there?” I love that. You know, you never see them but you see the gates and I love that.

SB: But the gates to Neverland are so simple.

MJ: So simple, that’s how I wanted them. Because I don’t want the gates to represent, you know, it’s an act of almost psychology. I was gonna mane them so, kid of,almost…what’s the word? Ummm, I can’t think of the word I’m looking for. I was gonna have people swing them open and really kind of have them funky and tattered, just so psychologically you really feel like you’re coming to a ranch, so that when you go around the bend I want it to change to Technicolor, like the Wizard of Oz does in black and white.

SB: That’s exactly what happened with us. Firs thing we said when we got to Neverland was , “This can’t be his ranch, what are those simple doors?” Then you drive through and you see the sign, “Welcome to Neverland” and then, kaboom.

MJ: Yeah.

SB: It just hits you.

MJ: That, see, that’s important to understand in show business. If you open with too much of a bang, where do you go from there? You crescendo too big, you have nowhere to go. You can’t do that. That’s why I always say, in amusement parks, the guy who creates the roller coaster , the dips, you’re going up at first, way up and you go, “Oh my God, why did I do this?” Then it takes you straight down and it takes you up a little bit, then down, and he’s the real showman, the guy who creates the dips. You know the peaks and valleys, then he takes you straight real fast and up and upside down. He’s a showman. That guy’s a real showman because he understands syncopation and rhythm and structure and that’s important. That’s real important as an artist of show business and most of your artists today know nothing about it.

SB: They all overexpose themselves.

MJ: At all. At all.

SB: Is that your professional greatest blessing, that you were born with that rhythm? You just had that natural timing and you understood it?

MJ: Yeah, yeah, I think.

SB: Is it part of your love for God and his hiddenness and all that, that it’s all one, that you sort of tapped into that divine mystery and you know the power of mystery?

MJ: Yeah, I think, yeah like you say, it’s just something…like the way you speak. That’s the power of God in you Shmuley. (talks more about seeing the power of God in the rabbi)

SB: You just get into the zone, the timing.

MJ: You just get into it, man. You become one with what God gave you. It’s like talking, it’s spiritual. It’s between you and God and the audience is right there with you. How you describe it, I mean, how do you dissect it, how do you analyze it? You really can’t. People say how do you do it? “Well I work out and train.” Well, you don’t.

SB: So yesterday, ‘N Sync came to see you. The lead singer Justin Timberlake and I don’t know who the other guy was. What’s his name?

MJ: Wade is a choreographer for…

SB: Oh, he wasn’t from ‘N Sync, Wade?

MJ: No, he’s a choreographer for Britney Spears and ‘N Sync. See I taught Wade.

SB: Really?

MJ: Yeah, I taught Wade. All the stuff you see Britney Spears and N Sync doing, that whole style came from me ‘cause I taught Wade. Wade’s from Australia and I brought him to America.

SB: So he’s their choreographer?

MJ: Yeah, and he does music. He was on my record label. We signed him to MJJ. He raps, he does everything.

SB: So he was here with Britney Spears, one of the biggest starts in the world right now, and that lead singer of N Sync, and they’re boyfriend and girlfriend. (very long-winded question) Is there any advice you would give them?

MJ: Just try to stay a child as long as you can. Don’t force into adulthood. Don’t force it, don’t push it. Don’t try to be cool and…go to Disney, hang out, enjoy your youth, ‘cause you’ll be old for, I mean you know, just keep your innocence. Have some fun and really be yourself.

(rabbi talks about how after the fact, MJ’s advice was “disappointing”)

SB: So what would you say to these people that are successful in the arts who are younger than you? The N Syncs? You would just tell them to be playful as well, don’t take it too seriously? Would you tell them anything else? Don’t take yourself too seriously or something?

MJ: No, I would always tell them to perfect your craft, always. I’m a very strong believer in working hard. But enjoy it, you know? Like be mild-spirited, playful, have some fun. You’ve got to have some fun, too.

SB: What about, you always say to me how proud you are that your family is a family show, that your concerts are appropriate for children.

MJ: Oh yeah.

SB: Britney Spears was heavily criticized by some in the last MTV awards, like she almost did a striptease on stage.

MJ: Oh…yeah, yeah.

SB: She took this off and that off and just threw off…Do you think she needs to use that much sexuality to get out her message? Or, if she’s really talented she may not need that? Would you give her any advice on that? Or it’s a part of the show and no big deal?

MJ: Umm, I don’t want to condemn her for it ‘cause it’s a show. But she has to realize she has, you know, kids out there you want to be like her and they’ll do whatever she does. I don’t know, sometimes artists don’t realize the danger of what they’re doing. If I took a picture of me with a cigarette, how many kids would start smoking that very day? You know, you have to think about all of that. And I understand, well, it’s just a video, I’m just acting a part, but you’re like their god. I mean…

SB: You’ve always felt that sense of responsibility?

MJ: Uh huh.

SB: You’ve always known how that picture of you appears, people are going to emulate that?

MJ: Yeah, and I understand why some artists may be a little controversial at times. I understand it. You know, if the pres start talking too much about her coming from the Mickey Mouse Club and being, you know, cutie Britney, she might think, “I want to give them some edge so I can strip this. I’m edgier, I’m tougher, I’m…” You know? So I understand. I think deep down inside she’s just a sweet person, you know?

SB: So you would say to her, keep your clothes on, keep it in balance here, ‘cause there are kids who want to be like you and you have a responsibility?

MJ: Yeah, ‘cause I like edge.

SB: You always understood the importance of that responsibility, when you became famous? You knew you had a huge responsibility as an icon and as a trend-setter?

MJ: Yeah, ‘cause I don’t ever think, I don’t think I’ve ever done anything offensive on stage…ever. Like some of these acts, you talk about how Bobby Brown would get a girl up there and he starts grinding her, you know, right on in front of everybody and police arrested him several times. Like having sex right on stage and all these kids in the audience. My show, it’s just totally different.

lovelymj

第30节：与名流关系恶化——麦当娜及其他人。


翻译：Aojng 校对：lovelymj

头晕脑涨,校对有失误的地方还请大家指出.

SB：（我问了Michael一些关于他名流友人的问题，为什么迈克更能与名人（而非普通人）保持良好关系呢？）

MJ：嗯。。。。可是我在好莱坞并没有真朋友。我只有几个真朋友。

SB：为什么不呢？你为什么不多和那些名流一起出去呢？

MJ：因为我认为他们并不真实。他们喜欢惹人注目。我和他们没有一点儿共同点。他们喜欢去俱乐部，然后就围坐一圈喝烈酒吸大麻，做所有这些我不会去做的疯狂的事。我们没有共同点。还记得我对你说过的话吗？麦当娜在和我出去前约法三章。“我不去迪士尼乐园，明白吗？那过时了。”我说：“我没请你去迪士尼啊。”她说：“我们要去餐厅，之后再去脱衣舞俱乐部。”我说：“我不去脱衣舞俱乐部。”那儿的家伙都混穿衣服！在我对她那么友善之后，她竟向媒体说一些诋毁我的话。所以我称她是个恶毒的女巫。我曾告诉过你，一次我们一起吃饭，一些孩子们围过来。“哦天哪，迈克尔杰克逊和麦当娜！你们能给我们签个名吗？”她说：“滚开！让我俩单独呆着。”我说：“别那样和孩子们说话！”她说：“闭嘴。”我说：“你闭嘴。”这就是我们的关系。之后我们又出去过，我们一起出席奥斯卡颁奖。她不是个好人。我不得不说。她不是个好人。

SB：你周围的人认为被人看到你和麦当娜在一起很重要吗？

MJ：他们对此一无所知。这完全是我俩之间的事。

SB：所以你去尝试过（去和名流接触），但并没奏效？

MJ：对。我去试过了，我每件事都会去试试。

SB：你主要是认为你的价值观与好莱坞的大多数人不同。

MJ：嗯。他们会做一大堆我不感兴趣的疯狂的事。当我和麦当娜一起时，她沉迷于那种讲女人被绑在墙上的书。她有一屋子那种书。她说：“我喜欢SM书籍。”可是我怎么会想看这种书？

SB：我认为很多都只是表象。她曾说过她宁愿读本好书而不是做爱。我认为（麦当娜身上）其它的那些粗俗的东西只是用来培养自己那种出位的表象的。

MJ：她在撒谎。（指她说自己宁愿读书。）我不能做品评。我不知道她是否已经变了，或是她试图声称她已经变了。

SB：她为什么会说些粗俗的事儿？

（Rabbi说了些麦当娜的好话。他说麦当娜是个犹太神秘哲学的追随者，是个慈爱而一心为孩子着想的母亲。）

MJ：我想她喜欢冲击价值观，而且她知道如何引人注意。我想她是真的爱上了我，但我一点也不爱她。她做了很多疯狂的事。我知道我们没有一点儿共同点。但我很确定拥有孩子可以改变一个人。我不知道她现在变了多少，但我确定肯定比以前好得多。

SB：她现在有了两个孩子了。

MJ：嗯我知道。如果你接到这么个电话你会怎么想？她告诉你她正把手指放在两腿之间…我说：“哦麦当娜，拜托别这样。”她说：“我想让你做的是在我挂上电话后，边想着我边摩擦自己。”（……大家意会吧……我就直译了）那就是她说的东西。她真的这样说。我见到她时，她会说：“这就是我昨晚用的那根手指。”太狂放了，简直失去控制了。

SB：但你从小到大所受的教育是所有的浪漫都应含蓄，有一定限度。…你从小养成的价值观和犹太人的核心价值很像。初听到麦当娜说的那种事的确令人吃惊。但那很快会变得乏味无聊。这就是为什么她不得不挑战极限，变得越来越过分来保持人们对她的兴趣。当她们总是裸露胸部你就不会想再看了。你认为那粗俗吗？

MJ：她做的事？当然。她一点也不性感。我认为性感发自内心，并且可以通过行为体现出来。

SB：你曾见过某个比较端庄的女士因为由心而发的性感而更吸引人么？

MJ：是的。我不喜欢女人总是说：“我要去做指甲…我要去做脚指甲…我要做指甲护理。”我讨厌所有那些。我喜欢更顽皮一点的女孩。如果她们摔跤…爬树…，我觉得她们更加性感。尽管我喜欢优雅的人。优雅是一切。

SB：如果一个女孩露着乳沟到处走来走去……

MJ：Frank喜欢那样。

（SB注：Michael是拿Frank Cascio开玩笑。他就坐在我们旁边。我们都笑了。）

SB：一个男人也许会想和那样的女人做爱。但那并不意味意味着他会想和她坠入爱河。

MJ：你当然想看。可我爱上的是天真无邪。我也是对Frank这样说的。

SB：你见过天真无邪的女人吗？或者总的来说你会觉得这一代人正培养那些不纯真的女人，保持纯真是不被鼓励的？

MJ：我希望她们是纯真的。

SB：名流是那些因为错误理由而与他们结婚的人的目标，那些人瞄准的是他们财富和名声。可是当某人因为这些错误理由而对你感兴趣的话，你不会知道么？

MJ：你不会知道。

SB：古传教士说过世界源于内心，深入内心。（worlds that emanate from the heart penetrate the heart）真诚无法伪造。当有人假装喜欢你的时候你难道不能分辨么？

MJ：那很难。因为现在的女人很善于说谎。我的意思是，天衣无缝。她们把谎话说得很顺畅。看看圣经吧。女人能轻易摧毁至高无上的男人，就是因为男人两腿之间的东西。没人能剪掉参孙的头发，但他和黛丽拉发生了关系。（圣经中的故事，详情请参考：http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/88573318.html?si=1）

SB：莱温斯基和克林顿…每个人都忽视的是莱温斯基追求的克林顿。这不是给克林顿找理由，但她也不是什么善碴。

MJ：我前几天不是说过了吗？那个女人带给总统太多痛苦了。一个女人能做多少事去伤害一位总统呢？看看她引起的后果。那就是我不喜欢Barbara Walters的原因，她教唆的太多了。她在电视上教唆大众。她本想今天来这儿但我拒绝了。

（………那听起来就像是两个老妇人间的八卦，无论如何，跳过半页rabbi的唠叨……）

MJ：我现在不喜欢俱乐部，我11岁的时候就什么都见识过了，八岁或者更早，九岁八岁七岁六岁。在俱乐部里斗殴经常发生，人们呕吐的到处都是，尖叫，嘶喊，警车呼啸而至。父亲从不允许我们加入，演出完了就走。但是有时你会被动的陷入一些疯狂的事情。我见过所有的那些。当杰克逊家兄弟还很小的时候，那个女人们在我们之前上台。“接下来，小小的 杰克逊五人组！”然后她脱光了所有衣服。并把内裤扔向观众，男人们抢了它然后猛嗅。我全见过了。她叫Rose Marie，她把她的名字纹在乳房上，还走来走去的展示。大家什么都看到了。所以当我十六七岁时，男孩子们说：“咱们去酒吧吧！”我会说：“你们疯了吗？”他们会说：“不，是你疯了吧？咱们去泡泡妞，喝喝酒。”但我已经见识过了。当我还是个孩子是我已经做过了。现在我只想到成为世界的一部分，去过我不曾拥有过的生活。带我去迪士尼乐园，带我去有魔力的地方。

lovelymj

Advice on Fame

SB: So yesterday, ‘N Sync came to see you. The lead singer Justin Timberlake and I don’t know who the other guy was. What’s his name?

MJ: Wade is a choreographer for…

SB: Oh, he wasn’t from ‘N Sync, Wade?

MJ: No, he’s a choreographer for Britney Spears and ‘N Sync. See I taught Wade.

SB: Really?

MJ: Yeah, I taught Wade. All the stuff you see Britney Spears and N Sync doing, that whole style came from me ‘cause I taught Wade. Wade’s from Australia and I brought him to America.

SB: So he’s their choreographer?

MJ: Yeah, and he does music. He was on my record label. We signed him to MJJ. He raps, he does everything.

SB: So he was here with Britney Spears, one of the biggest starts in the world right now, and that lead singer of N Sync, and they’re boyfriend and girlfriend. (very long-winded question) Is there any advice you would give them?

MJ: Just try to stay a child as long as you can. Don’t force into adulthood. Don’t force it, don’t push it. Don’t try to be cool and…go to Disney, hang out, enjoy your youth, ‘cause you’ll be old for, I mean you know, just keep your innocence. Have some fun and really be yourself.

(rabbi talks about how after the fact, MJ’s advice was “disappointing”)

SB: So what would you say to these people that are successful in the arts who are younger than you? The N Syncs? You would just tell them to be playful as well, don’t take it too seriously? Would you tell them anything else? Don’t take yourself too seriously or something?

MJ: No, I would always tell them to perfect your craft, always. I’m a very strong believer in working hard. But enjoy it, you know? Like be mild-spirited, playful, have some fun. You’ve got to have some fun, too.

SB: What about, you always say to me how proud you are that your family is a family show, that your concerts are appropriate for children.

MJ: Oh yeah.

SB: Britney Spears was heavily criticized by some in the last MTV awards, like she almost did a striptease on stage.

MJ: Oh…yeah, yeah.

SB: She took this off and that off and just threw off…Do you think she needs to use that much sexuality to get out her message? Or, if she’s really talented she may not need that? Would you give her any advice on that? Or it’s a part of the show and no big deal?

MJ: Umm, I don’t want to condemn her for it ‘cause it’s a show. But she has to realize she has, you know, kids out there you want to be like her and they’ll do whatever she does. I don’t know, sometimes artists don’t realize the danger of what they’re doing. If I took a picture of me with a cigarette, how many kids would start smoking that very day? You know, you have to think about all of that. And I understand, well, it’s just a video, I’m just acting a part, but you’re like their god. I mean…

SB: You’ve always felt that sense of responsibility?

MJ: Uh huh.

SB: You’ve always known how that picture of you appears, people are going to emulate that?

MJ: Yeah, and I understand why some artists may be a little controversial at times. I understand it. You know, if the pres start talking too much about her coming from the Mickey Mouse Club and being, you know, cutie Britney, she might think, “I want to give them some edge so I can strip this. I’m edgier, I’m tougher, I’m…” You know? So I understand. I think deep down inside she’s just a sweet person, you know?

SB: So you would say to her, keep your clothes on, keep it in balance here, ‘cause there are kids who want to be like you and you have a responsibility?

MJ: Yeah, ‘cause I like edge.

SB: You always understood the importance of that responsibility, when you became famous? You knew you had a huge responsibility as an icon and as a trend-setter?

MJ: Yeah, ‘cause I don’t ever think, I don’t think I’ve ever done anything offensive on stage…ever. Like some of these acts, you talk about how Bobby Brown would get a girl up there and he starts grinding her, you know, right on in front of everybody and police arrested him several times. Like having sex right on stage and all these kids in the audience. My show, it’s just totally different.

lovelymj

SB: Do you live with fears? You know people are going to shoot you down, metaphorically speaking. Does that makes you afraid?

MJ:Not as an artist. I am like a lion. Nothing can hurt me. No one can harm me without my permission. I wouldn't let it bother me, even though I have been hurt and I have felt pain in the past, of course, I have been saved by a lot of that.

SB: You don't live in fear now?

MJ:No.

SB: Do you think children teach us not to be afraid? On the one hand they are afraid, they are afraid of dogs, of the dark, and so many other things. On the other hand they are not afraid to love and not afraid to need.

MJ:We listen, we watch, we learn. We open our hearts and we open our minds, open our souls. Yes, we can learn but you have to realize that...

SB: Adults live with more fear than children.

MJ: Absolutely...nervous breakdowns. And they have created their own circumstances in a lot of ways. To worry about something until it destroys your health. If there is something they want very badly, kids will keep on saying it until they get it because they have no other way of getting it. Until you give in, which is really sweet, it's adorable. I always say to them, "If that's the most important thing for you to worry about in life then you are a lucky person. If that's your biggest issue then you are lucky." You realize in the future...for them it's important at the time, which is sweet. It can be the simplest thing too, sweet.

SB: So, the point I was trying to make was that on the one hand there are things that frighten you [Michael had told me about his fear of dogs], and they are classic childhood fears. And, by the way your love of fear is very similar to Adam and Eve. They love danger, you know. God said to them "there is this fruit and it's very dangerous," and that's when they want to eat it. On the one hand you're afraid of nasty dogs.

MJ: Yeah, I don't like that kind of thing. That frightens me. Or if you cornered by a mother cougar among her babies....I don't know if they call them cubs or what...and she's cornered and she's very territorial, you don't go there. You don't cross that line. I don't understand when people take the gun and shoot the mother...and the baby elephants they do the same dance every time. They let off this screech and they turn in circles of confusion and the mother's lying there dead, they spin in circles like they're going crazy. And I don't understand how man can do that. That hurts me so much. It's so sad.

SB: Did you do safaris when you were in Africa?

MJ: Yeah, yeah.

SB: You got close to some of the dangerous animals?

MJ:Yeah.

SB: And you weren't afraid...?

MJ:No. No, I love safaris. I love them so much.

SB: So you see the contradiction of this fear. You're afraid of things like spiders, things that children would be afraid of, but you're not afraid of a lion.

MJ:No, no. I'm fascinated by it.

SB: I mean, in Neverland I saw you get within like a foot of a cobra. Remember that?

MJ:Yeah, yeah. And the rattlesnakes. I mean, we stroked the rattlesnakes. And they're very, highly, highly...I mean, they could kill you.

SB: And you're not afraid of anything like that?

MJ: I'm fascinated by things that are dangerous to men and to just look at a shark. Why are we so fascinated by sharks? Because they can kill you. And you yell "Shark!" and everybody goes "Where? What? Who?" You know, you say, "barracuda" and nobody cares, you say, "shrimp". It's about the danger and the legend of it, it's about the folklore of it. And I love all that... I think I like what PT Barnum liked about it. You know, things that interest people, I love that kinda...that's what I love about magic, and Howard Hughes. I love all that.

SB: What are your biggest fears though? I know you're afraid of mean people. You don't like mean people.

MJ: I don't like big, mean, tall guys that are like aggressive. And that's what turned me off about you know who. That hurt me when he asked me, I didn't like it at all. How could a human being have that in him to be that harsh? If that's how he felt, keep it to himself, you don't say it. ( Rabbi doesn't specify who they are talking about)

SB: You don't like tall, angry, aggressive men...?

MJ: No. In my life, they've been mean. Even though there have been some gentle giants. The tall ones have been turned off of me.

SB: But your bodyguards are tall...

MJ:They are tall...

SB: But they're all nice....

MJ:I make sure they're nice. They have to be gentlemen. And they all know, if a child comes up, you don't turn the child away. If a child comes up and asks for an autograph, you roll out the red carpet of courtesy to 'em. They all know that. Very important. I mean, Brando won't sign autographs for anyone unless they're children. Unless they're a little kid, he don't sign. I think that's so sweet, you know?

SB: What other fears do you have?

MJ:What other fears? Um...

SB: Dogs. I don't understand why children have certain fears. ( tells a story about Baba, his little daughter, seeing a monster on TV and screaming and crying)

MJ:What show was it?

SB: I think it was Ben in Black or something.

MJ: Ohhhh. On DVD? But the other kids were fine with it? They knew it was a movie stuff and not real?

SB: (confirms and explains he doesn't usually lets them see stuff like that and blah blah)

MJ: Yeah, it's not for Baba. It's not for her. Prince and Paris love Jurassic Park, even though there can be violence and guns. But I want them to see great movies if they're great. Not too many but great, great art.

lovelymj

SB: What about celebrity? What about the negative things associated with celebrity? What do you dislike about being as famous as you are?

MJ: I dislike when you become an icon, being a celebrity and then becoming an icon, an international phenomenon which has happened to me-and I am not ashamed to say it- and the jealousy that is involved. I have seen some serious jealousy.

SB: Do you feel it around some other celebrities, and it is palpable, or do you feel it from a distance?

MJ: I have seen it but once they meet me facet to face they always, always change. They see I am nothing like that guy. I have had people really start to cry in front of me after meeting me. There have been fans, and there are two kinds of fans. There is the fan who goes, " Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God!" And they faint and you have to hold them. The there's the other fan, who say an abrupt, "Hi." I go, "Hi, nice to meet you. What's your name?" They give you their name, but they have got an attitude. I am just as simple and warm with them and then I see them start to cry. I say, "Why are you crying?" And they say, " Because I didn't think you would be this nice." And they go away a different person. I go, "Well, what did you think I was like?" and they'd go, "I thought you would be stuck up and arrogant." I say, " Please never judge a person. I am nothing like that." They have been so impressed. I'm sure they go away loving you tenfold, a thousand times more. Nothing beats kindness and love I think. Just simplicity.

SB: Have you always been able to melt a hard heart with kindness and love?

MJ: Yes.

SB: What about jealousy from other stars. Is there a lot of jealousy in your profession?

MJ: Absolutely. They admire you and know you are wonderful and great because they are jealous, because they wish they were in your shoes. And "M" is one of them. Madonna is one of them. She is jealous. She is a girl, a woman and I think that's what bothers her. I think women don't scream for other women. Men are too cool to scream for women. I get the fainting and the adulation and she doesn't.

SB: Does jealousy have no role? Were you never jealous of someone in your career who made you work harder?

MJ: Never jealous. Admiration, complete admiration.

SB: So admiration can bring ever greater goals than jealousy because it;s positive and not negative. So you would look at Fred Astaire and say, "I want to be able to do that."

MJ: Yes, absolutely. Complete inspiration, never jealousy. It's wrong, but people are like that, aren't they? It's true? Can't people look at somebody great and get totally jealous of them?

SB: Sure, but you never felt that?

MJ: I don't understand a person who could do that.

-----------------

SB: For you it has always been inspiration? You have been in awe and wonder of those with great talent?

MJ: Can a person become jealous of God?

SB: Sure. Look at Stalin and Hitler. They tried to be God. They wanted to decide life and death.

MJ: Wow.

SB: Because they lose the sense of awe and wonder. God doesn't impress them. He threatens them. They want to be all-powerful, so they can't submit to God's authority. They become enemies of God. [Aside from jealousy] what other things do you dislike about celebrity?

MJ:Being famous.

SB: Do you dislike when you can't walk down the street?

MJ: No, I enjoy when people recognize me and they are nice and say, "Hi", and there is a crowd or something.

SB: When I was with you in that van, and we had left your hotel, Michael, twice we saw a young black kid on a bicycle follow us for about four to five miles on the most treacherous streets in NY, just to get your autograph. And you stopped the car and made sure he got his autograph. We saw three other kids who, after the dinner with President Clinton, chased us for about a mile on foot until you said to the driver, "Stop." And you gave them your autograph. So you see people like that?

MJ: Oh God, Shmuely, hundreds of them sometimes. It's a trillion times worse than what you have seen. They start breaking things and it turns into a mob scene.

SB: ( I was with Michael as we exited Carnegie Hall after our presentation. I can vouch for the fact that he was nearly torn limb from limb.)

SB: Do you enjoy when people recognize you as long as they are nice?

MJ: I think our job as celebrities, I think anybody who has been blessed by God with any sort of talent-be it the sculptor, the writer, the painter, the singer of songs, to the dancer- is to bring some sense of escapism and enjoyment and to the masses of people. That's our job, to bring joy.

SB: Anything else you hate about celebrity? Obviously, you hate the tabloid stories as well?

MJ: Hate them. I hate the jerks for doing that sort of thing. I think racism, jealousy, and just hate-evil-are part of it. They vent out their frustration on people who are trying to do good and it is just sad. If anyone believes it, they are like crazy. I mean I wish there was a way to totally get rid of those kinds of things.

lovelymj

SB: I see how people will do anything to have a piece of you.They want to ride your coattails to fame. They want to be seen with you, photographed with you. But there are people who have have gotten close to you who have harmed you, who have hurt you, who have sued you. Have you got any stories where they come to you and say, "I am really sorry, I used you. I am really sorry?" Do you have any stories about forgiveness?

MJ:I wish. I wish people were that sweet to admit to their own wrongdoing.

-------------

SB: Not one? Never? No one ever came to you and said, " Sorry Michael, but at the party the other night I claimed to know you better than I really did. I used your name to get ahead?" Have you heard stories like that, where someone said, "Oh yes I spoke to this guys. He says he knows you so well. He says he's your best friend. And you have never even heard of the guy?"

MJ:I have that all the time. Sometimes not to break their heart I agree like I know who they are talking about, because I don't want to embarrass the person.

SB: So you'll say, "Yeah, yeah. I know who you are talking about?"

MJ: [When really I am thinking is] I don't know who the heck you are talking about.

SB: No one who has ever hurt you has come and asked for forgiveness?( skip) But have you never had to forgive anyone in your life, Michael? Have you ever forgiven anyone without them asking? Have you forgiven the people who have hurt you?

MJ: To their face?

SB: In your heart.

MJ: Of course.

SB: You have seen someone being mean and you have forgiven them anyway.

MJ: Yes, because I was taught to be Biblical: "Forgive them for they know not what they do." And you do it.

SB: Do do you think you are a better person for it?

MJ: Yeah.

SB: So you have no anger in your heart at anyone today?

MJ: I have anger for the press. I am very bitter, nad and angry with them and I am angry at those who deliberately inflict pain upon a child to hurt them. The stories about what they are doing in the wars to the kids. I always try and figure out a way to try and do something about that.

SB: What about forgiveness? There are people who have hurt you. Children do fight, but they don't bear grudges. Can you forgive people with your whole heart, people who have hurt you?

MJ:Yes.

SB: Even I didn't realize this. But when I mentioned Roseanne Barr to you, because I do her television show often a s a guest, I later saw that she had made a negative comment about you for no apparent reason.

MJ:She has been mean with me. That's why I was hesitant.

( Rabbi talks about his friendship with Roseanne and admiring Michael for not badmouthing her to him even though she hurt him, Michael just went silent and didn't speak about her to Rabbi)

SB: You could tell me that.

MJ: I didn't maliciously attack her.

SB: I saw that. Can you forgive them? There is no malice in their heart.

MJ: You know, "They not know what they do." Words of Jesus. They don't even know me. It has no foundation what they are doing. How can they say that...they don't even know me? Do you believe something you have read?

SB: So it is total forgiveness?

MJ: Yes, because Roseanne came to me later on, like a puppy backstage, praising, feeling bad about all of that.

SB: Have you got other examples?

MJ: Madonna has never apologized. She is jealous.

SB: She wants to be the biggest star in the world?

MJ: Yes, she is jealous.

SB: You can't understand that. You would say, "What are you jealous for? You do your thing. I do my thing...."

MJ: But at the same time she will come to my concert and cry. She comes there and tears rolling down her face for the song and the representation of the song. There are some good qualities in her.

SB: There are good qualities in her. But you're saying she allows her jealousy to mask them at times. But if someone does that, they don't even have to ask for forgiveness because you will just forgive them?

MJ: Yes.

SB: I saw that you made an overture to Jay Leno. You went to a charity benefit with Elizabeth Taylor and you were wearing a red suit.

MJ: Brown suit.

SB: So you saw Jay Leno and...?

MJ: He was sitting at my table with President Ford, Sylvester Stallone, Elizabeth Taylor, Sydney Poitier. When he came to sit down I just walked over to him and started like playfully chocking him [because he always makes negative jokes about Michael] and he was like, "Urgggghhh. Urggghhhhh." And then Elizabeth said, "Have you been saying mean things about Michael?" And he went, "Huh?" Later on in the evening he shook my hand with a warm expression in his eyes and the next day he sends a letter to the office saying, "Michael said he would come to the show. Can you set it up so that we can have him on the show?" I never said that. So I don't know how to take it from here. But instead of taking him to one side and saying something nasty back to him, I wouldn't do that. I couldn't help doing what I did to him [Laughs].

SB: That's cute. Everyone saw?

MJ: Yeah, they saw it. He has a big neck too. I couldn't get my hands round.

SB: What is it about Elizabeth Taylor that is so endearing to you? She is like your closest friend for many years. What is it about her, in the context of these childlike qualities?

MJ: We are both from the same place...

SB: She's loyal right.

MJ: She is loyal. We are from the same place. She can relate to the world I have come from. She's curious. You just look in her eyes and you know. It is like speaking telepathically. You can feel it, it;s true, without saying a word and I felt that seeing her the very first time. It's like that with Shirley Temple [Black]/ We are from the same world.

lovelymj

SB: Let me ask you this. Given that you were somewhat disadvantaged as a child, not being given the love that you needed, how do you overcome what you weren't given? How did you learn to make up for the basic tools that you were deprived of?

MJ: I think music and dance helped me a lot, like therapy. To be able to express your feelings through songs and your emotions on stage and getting all that love back a thousandfold through the fans.

SB: That compensated for what you didn't get?

MJ: Yeah, 'cause when a fan walks up, I mean honestly when someone walks up to you and says, "I love you so much", it makes my heart feel so good. I could never get tired of it.

SB: Really? Do you not sometimes feel that a sick.o fan, a stalker, takes it too far?

MJ: No, nope. I just love it. I just love my fans. I love them to pieces and what makes my heart happy is when I see they support my beliefs about family and children. They have these big billboards of children and babies and they're with me, they get it, you know? They get what I am saying.

SB: So what you didn't get from your parents you get from your fans, but there is one big difference. Parents are supposed to give you unconditional love, even if you don't deserve it. Bill Clinton's mother, Virginia Kelly, was once asked which son she loved more. Bill, who made her real proud as president, or Roger, who had drug issues and was accused of being a deadbeat dad.

MJ:ONe of her kids?

SB: Roger, Bill Clinton's brother.

MJ: Has a drug addiction?

SB: Sure, I am almost positive he was in prison for selling drugs.

MJ: Really?

SB: And he was a deadbeat dad, (skip). And she was asked (his mother) "One son is kind of bum and the other is president, do you love Bill more?" And she said, "What? Are you crazy? I love both my children, I love them equally." So there's got to be a difference, Michael, between how the fans love you, and how your family does. Parents love you unconditionally, but the fans love you because you can sing and dance, or do you feel unconditional love from your fans?

MJ: That's hard, 'cause I'm not in their skin. Umm, I think after discovering who I am and how I see them and make them feel good about themselves, they love me unconditionally. I know they do....I feel it, I see it. You go with me sometime and we go out and you're gonna run into the diehard fans, you're going to see something. It's unbelievable, it's like a religious experience. They sleep on the street, hold up candlelight and they have their families out there, it's just so beautiful. I love seeing the children come, that makes my heart so happy.

SB:So it's the case of originally they loved you because of song and dance, but then they went beyond that point.

MJ: Yeah, they discovered what I'm about, what I'm trying to say.... There's a message in the music that's more than just a beat and a rhythm. There's some real depth.

SB: Why do you have such fanatical fans? Can I tell you how fanatical they are? I haven't even shown you, but that one article I published about you, after Neverland and your birthday, has generated so many hundreds of letters by e-mail to us. You've go to see it. Half of these people run their own Michael Jackson website. There's something like hundreds upon hundreds of Michael Jackson websites.

MJ: Yeah, yeah.

SB: How do you account for that? I mean everyone has fans. It's like when we talked about the Spice Girls the other day. Sure they had fans, but where are the fans now? Why yours such diehard fans?

MJ: I think 'cause they, I've been given the gift that God has given me and I haven't been a "here today gone tomorrow" artist and it allows people, the public, to grow up with me. When they grow up with me it's more an emotional contact and they feel attached to me like I'm their brother. I have people walk up to me [and say] "Michael!" start talking, grabbing me just like they're my brother or sister. I play as if, you know, you've got to go along with it. They really feel that you belong to them.

SB: You've known them for their entire life?

MJ: Yeah, all my life and I have to go right along with it. 'Cause I'm on their wall, they hear me every morning, and pictures are everywhere. It is like a shrine and some religious say it's idol worship but I don't believe it's idol worship.

SB: Okay, why isn't it idol worship?

MJ: I have never written once, nor have I heard, [ the fans claiming that I'm a god.] Perhaps there were some banners that say, "You are God." We do have footage like that but we don't show it on television. We have banners that say that. I don't think this is anything bad 'cause what I'm talking about is love, let's restore the family...

( skipping rabbi's babble)

SB: So it's not idol worship because you yourself have subordinated yourself to the higher value saying that I represent this?

MJ: I'm representing the higher being. I'm not saying I'm God, but I'm saying heal the planet, heal the world, save our children, save the forest. There is nothing wrong with that. Right?

(skipping rabbi's babbling)

SB: The idol worship is where it's about me.

MJ:Yeah, no that's not what I'm about.

SB: The opposite is "I may be a hero, but I'm a hero for a higher cause."

MJ: If you saw my show you would see it's totally not about me. Big giant screens show them cutting the rainforest and hungry children reaching out. It's just so beautiful. People start to cry and get emotional. It's so wonderful.



I have tears in my eyes...ahhh. Anyway Renee and I decided to skip the part 4- Rabbi's interview with Katherine Jackson because there is nothing new or exciting in there. Some facts: Michael was baptized, only him and Rebbie were. Katherine thinks that Michael is as soft as her and she always told him to not be like her, it hurt her a lot that he is too good and can't say NO to people.

If you guys insist we will post that interview as well.

lovelymj

SB: You know how children are always making mock weddings. They tell you they have a crush on someone in their class. Children seem naturally romantic. Have you always been romantic?

MJ: Not on purpose, but not unromantic, I don’t think so. You just be yourself.

SB: Children always have this puppy love thing going on, and they have crushes on each other. They’re always passing notes in class.

MJ: I think that is so sweet and cute.

SB: Do you like creating romance? Are you a matchmaking kind of person?

MJ: No, I don’t do that. I am too shy to do all that stuff. I am a lot like my mother. We used to ask my mother, “Do you kiss Joseph?” She goes, “Don’t ask me those questions.” We go, “Mother do you kiss him?” She goes, “I don’t want to talk about it.” We go, “Well, how did you meet him? Who asked to get married?”

SB: So you were brought up to be shy and modest about things pertaining to love and romance?

MJ: Yes, we don’t talk about it.

SB: You have been married twice, Michael. Do you still believe in romance, or have you had some negative experiences and it is therefore more difficult to believe?

MJ: No, I believe in it, but I am shy about it. None of us have invited out parents to our weddings. We don’t believe in it. We are too shy. I wouldn’t dare in a million years to have my mother at a wedding of mine. I can’t have myself walking down the aisle and my mother sitting there. That’s why we all ran off and got married secretly and my mother reads it I nthe paper and she doesn’t mind. Because we are just like her. She would have done the same thing.

SB: So love has to be something hidden and concealed?

MJ: It’s like private, like mushy stuff.

SB: And mushy stuff is always private?

MJ: Yeah.

SB: (tells MJ not to overdo being secretive in romance, that his parents should definitely be at his wedding) So romance is something you believe in but you have been taught to be shy about it?

MJ: I am shy. I don’t know how good I am at it because I am shy. I am very different in that way. I have heard guys be really poetic with girls and “Oh baby this and that.” I am simply not like that. I am like straight to the point and say it simply.

SB: So what do you do in things like music videos when you’re expected to portray romance and do love scenes and things like that?

MJ: That’s why it is my job to cast the girl, because it is my job to think they are cute. So I can do it if I really like them, like some of the girls you see in my videos. I have cast them because I really like them and it caused a problem afterwards because they start to really like me, and I don’t want to get that serious, and it becomes a problem sometimes.

SB: You probably face this all the time because not only are you famous but you are the kind of guy who women want to be around – soft, gentle, not afraid to express his emotions. Women die for guys who aren’t afraid to show vulnerability and softness, whereas a lot of the guys in Hollywood are stereotypically self-absorbed, self-obsessed, can’t commit. So do you often find that this happens, that women get clingy?

MJ: What do you mean?

SB: Like you said, it is supposed to be a professional thing. You just film something with a female costar, but afterwards they become attached.

MJ: Yes, it happens.

SB: How do you break the news to them that you don't reciprocate?

MJ: When they see me running the other way. Yeah. Some of them follow me around the world and it is so hard.

SB: That probably makes them chase you even more because they are probably drawn to that boyish shyness….But I guess after a while, with you running halfway around from them, they get the message. But you never tell them directly?

MJ: No, because it would hurt them too much.